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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Path Walker View Post
    Its not though, that formation is to let you play a full company and get a bonus for doing so. The design team didn't make the decision to include that because they thought it would sell tanks, they did it because they wanted people to use Space Marines how the fluff depicted them
    We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. However, why do space marines get a free 500+ points to play "how the fluff depicted them" when other armies don't? Where are the free points to make Chaos play the way they are depicted? And Imperial Guard? Orks? Sisters? Tau? Dark eldar? Sure, maybe the plan is to flip everyone to such a format, after all Ad Mech have such a formation and so do Dark Angels (though they're just space marines, so it's basically the same). But in the meantime, the rest of us are playing 500+ points down and GW doesn't care that it is blatantly unbalanced/unfair. And even once all the armies have such a free-points-granting-formation-whatever (though I sincerely don't believe that will come to pass as I firmly believe we'll be moved along to the AoS model before all the armies, most even, get such an update), that just means we're all playing much bigger battles then we think we are. Which means we had to get a lot more models to do so. Surely you see this is the case?

    In the end, why add such a blatantly unfair mechanic to the game? And to be specific. You (GW) establish a measurement of fairness in your game (points). Play space marines the way we say = additional 500+ points. Play any other army = nothing you can do (yet)/too bad for you/buy some space marines. And sure, I suppose I could play a few broke-*** combo armies (eldar/Ad Mech with free points/whatever), but I won't. I'll keep painting, converting and building my armies and losing. The difference will be that the illusion that it's fair, that I have a chance, will be gone.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazzigum View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. However, why do space marines get a free 500+ points to play "how the fluff depicted them" when other armies don't? Where are the free points to make Chaos play the way they are depicted? And Imperial Guard? Orks? Sisters? Tau? Dark eldar? Sure, maybe the plan is to flip everyone to such a format, after all Ad Mech have such a formation and so do Dark Angels (though they're just space marines, so it's basically the same). But in the meantime, the rest of us are playing 500+ points down and GW doesn't care that it is blatantly unbalanced/unfair. And even once all the armies have such a free-points-granting-formation-whatever (though I sincerely don't believe that will come to pass as I firmly believe we'll be moved along to the AoS model before all the armies, most even, get such an update), that just means we're all playing much bigger battles then we think we are. Which means we had to get a lot more models to do so. Surely you see this is the case?

    In the end, why add such a blatantly unfair mechanic to the game? And to be specific. You (GW) establish a measurement of fairness in your game (points). Play space marines the way we say = additional 500+ points. Play any other army = nothing you can do (yet)/too bad for you/buy some space marines. And sure, I suppose I could play a few broke-*** combo armies (eldar/Ad Mech with free points/whatever), but I won't. I'll keep painting, converting and building my armies and losing. The difference will be that the illusion that it's fair, that I have a chance, will be gone.
    Everyone will be getting stuff like it. It takes time and its just a game so chill out, if you don't want your opponent using it, ask them not to.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaric View Post
    Cant see why you couldnt do a living rulebook. It would be alot of thankless, non paying work but if it makes ya happy, why not? Really tho, is that what you wanna do? You have seen how impossible it is to please gamers (re: yourself) so I have no idea why you would wanna go down that road.

    There are lots of other games dude, Id look into them if I was you, no sense getting mopey over a game you have no hope of changing easily.
    Oh, I know there are other games, and I play many of them. Really enjoying Mars Attacks and Heroclix (as I've always done). Looking forward to Conan by Monilith sometime next year too. I enjoy these games and others and will carry on playing them. But, for all that, 40k is different. It's special and I simply cannot quit it. Don't want too even. I love the fluff, I love the models and I love the game too (without the broken, get them to buy more stuff, crap layered over it). I will carry on enjoying it. I'm just wondering if there are others, perhaps even a significant number of others, who feel as I do on the matter.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Path Walker View Post
    Anyone who works in a retail environment that allows its customers to "hang out" in that environment will recognise the toxic nature of a certain type of customer and why they're bad for business.

    People who can't fathom it are usually the type of customer that is undesirable.
    So I'm the bad guy now? When did I become the bad guy? I didn't say I was going to my local GW or other hobby stores and railing against the system or bad-mouthing AoS to the customer base. I could, but I won't. Instead, I came here looking for real conversation on the matter. My understanding is that many of the guys at the local GW are really enjoying it, but honestly, I'm not there enough to know for sure. Time will tell if AoS is successful.

    It's funny though, because that GW breaks your mold completely. It IS a hang out for the local guys and they come there regularly to play, talk and just hang out. But they love the manager (who is awesome) and are totally loyal to the guy. They buy from him, sell to new comers for him, and present a united and enthusiastic front for the company for him. I go out of my way, and it's a long way, to go and play there when I can too. The atmosphere is that good.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazzigum View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. However, why do space marines get a free 500+ points to play "how the fluff depicted them" when other armies don't? Where are the free points to make Chaos play the way they are depicted? And Imperial Guard? Orks? Sisters? Tau? Dark eldar? Sure, maybe the plan is to flip everyone to such a format, after all Ad Mech have such a formation and so do Dark Angels (though they're just space marines, so it's basically the same). But in the meantime, the rest of us are playing 500+ points down and GW doesn't care that it is blatantly unbalanced/unfair. And even once all the armies have such a free-points-granting-formation-whatever (though I sincerely don't believe that will come to pass as I firmly believe we'll be moved along to the AoS model before all the armies, most even, get such an update), that just means we're all playing much bigger battles then we think we are. Which means we had to get a lot more models to do so. Surely you see this is the case?

    In the end, why add such a blatantly unfair mechanic to the game? And to be specific. You (GW) establish a measurement of fairness in your game (points). Play space marines the way we say = additional 500+ points. Play any other army = nothing you can do (yet)/too bad for you/buy some space marines. And sure, I suppose I could play a few broke-*** combo armies (eldar/Ad Mech with free points/whatever), but I won't. I'll keep painting, converting and building my armies and losing. The difference will be that the illusion that it's fair, that I have a chance, will be gone.
    You're complaining about what is easily a 3500-4000 point army before you take any other Dataslates. How often are you ever going to see that list and not have enough firepower to render that extra 36 AV 11-12 Hull Points redundant?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazzigum View Post
    Oh, I know there are other games, and I play many of them. Really enjoying Mars Attacks and Heroclix (as I've always done). Looking forward to Conan by Monilith sometime next year too. I enjoy these games and others and will carry on playing them. But, for all that, 40k is different. It's special and I simply cannot quit it. Don't want too even. I love the fluff, I love the models and I love the game too (without the broken, get them to buy more stuff, crap layered over it). I will carry on enjoying it. I'm just wondering if there are others, perhaps even a significant number of others, who feel as I do on the matter.
    I hear you, and years of laughing at forums (not you i mean) has taught me you are definitely not alone.


    Edit, I dont think path is saying your a bad guy fwiw

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Thomas View Post
    You're complaining about what is easily a 3500-4000 point army before you take any other Dataslates. How often are you ever going to see that list and not have enough firepower to render that extra 36 AV 11-12 Hull Points redundant?
    No, I'm not. The Ad mech formation grants you 500-600 free points for well under 2,000 points, under 1,500 even I believe. The space marine one allows you a host of free transports and is achievable well under 2,000 points as well... That's the problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaric View Post
    I hear you, and years of laughing at forums (not you i mean) has taught me you are definitely not alone.


    Edit, I don't think path is saying your a bad guy fwiw
    Really? Because I think he indirectly called me "undesirable." If I'm mistaken, then I apologize and apparently don't get his point. I suppose I just need to go back to chillin'.

  8. #28

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    It's not a direct insult - just a poorly chosen descriptive.

    The Mechanicus Mega-Force formation is also cash cost intensive. You need at least one of everything for Mechanicus, Skitarii and Knights. I'll do a quick tot up of that price....£471. For the absolute bare minimum - and you not being able to fully take advantage of the freebies it offers. Add in that in minimum sized units, many Mechanicus units are, well, a bit cack and it's not the problem many seem to think it would be.

    Yes, free upgrades are nice and you can shoehorn the force into a surprisingly tiddly army points wise - but it's not going to take much to start smashing up the best stuff they've got. 3 Kataphron don't last very long. A single Onager, let alone single Sidonian Dragoon is pretty well pointless in the grand scheme of things, as they only really excel when taken in larger numbers (three Dragoons minimum for me)

    Which sets the stage pretty clearly - these formations are perks and encouragement to buy lots of stuff, no easy ways to flatten all opposition.
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  9. #29
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    When I said "undesirable" I meant that customers who haven't spent much money in a shop for a long time and hang around there and make it difficult for the staff to recruit new hobbyists were undesirable, I wasn't attributing that trait to any individual in the thread just stating that from the businesses perspective that is the case.

    This is what I mean by the problematic veterans being moved along, when you have people (to use a stereotype that exists for a good reason) who spend all day in a shop, taking up a member of staffs time without buying product and complaining endlessly about the game/company, you're creating an unwelcoming environment for potential new hobbyists.

    When the best way for the business to continue is based on recruitment, you don't want the veterans there making the hobby look bad.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Path Walker View Post
    When I said "undesirable" I meant that customers who haven't spent much money in a shop for a long time and hang around there and make it difficult for the staff to recruit new hobbyists were undesirable, I wasn't attributing that trait to any individual in the thread just stating that from the businesses perspective that is the case.

    This is what I mean by the problematic veterans being moved along, when you have people (to use a stereotype that exists for a good reason) who spend all day in a shop, taking up a member of staffs time without buying product and complaining endlessly about the game/company, you're creating an unwelcoming environment for potential new hobbyists.

    When the best way for the business to continue is based on recruitment, you don't want the veterans there making the hobby look bad.

    I was hanging out at the local game shop last night and a long time staffer described 'undesirable' quite well. With WFB there was a large contingent of local players that downloaded pirated army books, bought their FW models from the Chinese and Russian recasters and proxied in non-GW models. This group is now raging the loudly about AoS!

    Thinking a company that you don't support in any way should continue supporting an unprofitable game system just for you is a mind boggling sense of entitlement! Not the case with all the unhappy folks I'm sure, but it's interesting the # of local haters that do fit this description.
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