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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexington View Post
    This is not a shrinking market.
    Having gone to at least 4 (UK) games clubs in the last 5 years, I have seen all these newer games you are on about. It is not a shrinking market, no.

    But the common factor I have observed, is that the older, established gamers, are the ones playing the newer games. The new gamers who don't have a link to the club - be it Dad, brother, whatever: Are playing the entry level drug provided by GW.

    GW doesn't care one jot for vets, the reason being, after a level of saturation in the wargaming hobby (as opposed to 'The Hobby' as GW states), you don't need GW. You know where to get cheaper paints, cheaper tools, other miniatures, your army is mostly complete. GW grows the market, but deliberately targets the newer players. The new smaller gamer companies with no shareholders to please can do funky crowd pleasing stuff that GW has long dispensed with.

    I am not commenting on whether I think this is sensible or not. But I think the fact they are increasing profit is their main objective - and you can read from the financial statement that NOW is when Rountree wants to grow sales, so maybe we'll see some change.
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  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denzark View Post
    Having gone to at least 4 (UK) games clubs in the last 5 years, I have seen all these newer games you are on about. It is not a shrinking market, no.

    But the common factor I have observed, is that the older, established gamers, are the ones playing the newer games. The new gamers who don't have a link to the club - be it Dad, brother, whatever: Are playing the entry level drug provided by GW.

    GW doesn't care one jot for vets, the reason being, after a level of saturation in the wargaming hobby (as opposed to 'The Hobby' as GW states), you don't need GW. You know where to get cheaper paints, cheaper tools, other miniatures, your army is mostly complete. GW grows the market, but deliberately targets the newer players. The new smaller gamer companies with no shareholders to please can do funky crowd pleasing stuff that GW has long dispensed with.

    I am not commenting on whether I think this is sensible or not. But I think the fact they are increasing profit is their main objective - and you can read from the financial statement that NOW is when Rountree wants to grow sales, so maybe we'll see some change.
    For the market I think it's a great thing GW gets the new people in and then they can move onto other stuff which is good for the companies making the other stuff and GW doesn't really care as they are looking for new customers rather than trying to poach old ones back. I know we hear a lot about GW needing to pay attention to their "competition" but these companies aren't really viewed as competition as they aren't really competing for the customers they want, also I'd rather GW left them alone because I rather like fact we've got all this choice and I suspect if GW did what I've seen mentioned in places a lot of these other companies would disappear fairly quickly.
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  3. #73

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    GW are the only company I see as actively trying to recruit new hobbyists, rather than attract those with an established interest to a new game.

    And consider some of the examples given.

    X-Wing. Well, that's still a very, very young game. Couple of years at most? Those do tend to do well, or sink largely without comment. Me, I've got at least one of everything for it, but am now selling off my Scum and Villainy, and on a personal opinion level, I think the forthcoming wave with the Heavy Bombers may have 'jumped the shark' design wise. I just don't like the K-Wing or the TIE Punisher. Others will of course have their own equally valid opinions on that, and rightly so.

    But everyone I know who plays X-Wing also plays GW games. Again, this is clearly a limited perspective as I don't know, and wouldn't pretend to know, every gamer in my local area, let alone globally.

    Infinity? There's a small group of players at my local club who seem to enjoy it, but again - they also play GW games. Infinity just offers them something different, and it's a something different they enjoy. Me, can't get on with the aesthetic - but can't say I've ever actually played the game or read the rules/background. Could be I'm the one missing out, but when an aesthetic leaves me cold, there's little anyone can do to get me into a miniatures game, because the look of the thing is so important (at least to me. See above about opinions and rightly so etc)

    Warmahordes? Don't recall seeing anyone play it down the club, though I don't get down there as often as I'd like due to work commitments, and generally being really tired by the time Thursday evening comes around. I think people do have forces, I just don't see it being played. Could mean it's mostly an 'in house' game, could mean all the forces are gathering dust, could mean something in between.

    But despite these other games, GW remains the widest played company in my area, and there's always at least a couple of people embarking on new armies every month. Some months there's a notable increase, such as when they did Mechanicus, others lower than average. But on the whole there's a constant flow of money to GW from the wider community. AoS seems popular enough at the moment, and 40k is as popular as ever. Heck, people still play the SG round my way, either with existing forces, proxies, conversions from GW kits or third party equivalents. Blood Bowl remains ridiculously popular - I'd indulge that one myself, except I'm terrible at Bloodbowl. Never really got over the amusement of bundling opposing players into the crowd!

    So it's a weird one. GW remain the biggest fish, though other small fish are growing - but then, given they've come from nowhere, as per my original point that's pretty much to be expected. Armada I note hasn't particularly taken off - not sure why, and given we've only had the initial release and the first wave, it's not that different to X-Wing. That didn't take off until the TIE Phantom wave around a year ago.
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  4. #74
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    Thing is the other games are tiny in comparison when you look at the (limited) figures we have available. It's also telling that PP entire marketing line seems to be "tired of GW? Come play Warmachine" even the seem to acknowledge who's getting the new people in.

    I think the really decider is though that New people are effectively an infinite resource to be tapped into where as existing gamers are a finite one. New people offer the only real prospect for growth, and it not new people to a specific system it's new people to the whole hobby (Wargaming)
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  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Mystery View Post
    GW are the only company I see as actively trying to recruit new hobbyists, rather than attract those with an established interest to a new game.

    I am actually amazed you can say that with a straight face given that both infinity AND warmachine have active programs to mentor new people in the community. BOTH those companies have programs with local members either Warcors or Press Gangers that actively demo and teach the game in stores and at events. Like seriously, those two companies are actually taking that idea from GW after GW threw it out as a "too hard" and yet you think GW is the one supporting the community and new hobbiests?

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  6. #76

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    Not in the UK they don't - hence the 'only company I see' part.

    I do try to speak only for myself in such matters, rather than make sweeping statements.
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  7. #77
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    Don't forget UK is much more densely populated than the U.S. especially where Mystery says he lives (Kent I think) from what I've heard form our U.S. Cousins we do tend to have larger gaming communities over here.

    I didn't look at the Infinty one ( couldn't be bothered sorry) but that PP one looks like it's still focused on existing Waragamers rather than completely new to Wargaming people, events in stores, clubs and conventions and the like.
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  8. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Mystery View Post
    Warhammer had an issue that 40k simply doesn't. Downward scaling.

    40k plays just fine at 500 points. The game might be fairly short, but you don't really miss out on any of the key tactical challenges the game presents.

    Warhammer didn't really work beyond 1,500, as you'd typically lack enough units to enjoy the manoeuvres that brought victory, and a single whiffed combat spelled disaster.
    Well, both games used to have versions of the rules for smaller scales. 40K had Kill Team and Combat Patrol; KT is "back" but only as a digital add-on you have to pay extra for on top of your $85 rulebook. Warhammer had Skirmish in the 6th edition rulebook, and Warbands added in White Dwarf (and available online free), so you had ways to play smaller battles, and they were fun.

    Then GW decided to scoop that stuff out of the rulebooks as said rulebooks pretty much doubled in price. They didn't want people to think about playing smaller games. They wanted to encourage larger games.

    And they've done that even more with the formations. You can say it "scales down well" (we'll get back to that), but a lot of people don't care about that. They see formations that give them bonuses for using more, detachments that reward larger armies. People who've spent thousands on figures don't want to set them all aside for smaller games.

    With recent changes to the game, it doesn't really scale down well either. You can include a Knight, a super-heavy vehicle, in a 500 point game. And it's ridiculously effective and hard to kill. That's with a Battle-Forged list, mind you. Unbound will just open the floodgates of madness at lower points values. I saw more balance in the 500 point WFB armies in a recent set of escalation leagues than I did with the 500 point 40K armies... which is likely why people lost interest quickly and it was impossible to find league matches, but you could easily find someone wanting to do 2500 or 3000 points.

    But the biggest problem, again, is that Games Workshop pushes the larger matches. They dropped the small match rules, they add formations and stuff to promote larger armies, they push formations with free stuff in order to push people to buy more stuff (the transports for a Battle Company, at their cheapest, are an extra $372.50... on top of hundreds of dollars for the other models, and that's able to fit under 2000 points). They even let super-heavies into the core game with 40K... which, again, you can field under 500 points! So, with the company itself pushing people to play big games, it's hard to get anyone to consider smaller matches. People wanted Epic 28mm, and now we have it, and suddenly they realize that because 40K got so huge, new players can't afford to play the matches that are most common. The company's having a hard time getting in new players, and I can't help but laugh at the people who think these are the glory days and skirmish-level 40K was so awful and boring.

    The good news is, it's all fixable. Easily, too.

    The bad news is, GW won't do that, because they seem to think that if a new customer isn't willing to drop a thousand dollars, he's useless.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Mystery View Post
    GW are the only company I see as actively trying to recruit new hobbyists, rather than attract those with an established interest to a new game.
    Eh, you might not be paying attention to the others. And it could be your region. But I also find it humorous that you say that while they're changing the name of their stores to what they say their existing customers know them as, and "Warhammer" will only bring in people who know what Warhammer is, while "Games Workshop" brought a lot of foot traffic of people looking for various sorts of games. Their own marketing idea is geared toward people with familiarity, not new customers. (Also a bit bad when they admit they're already having trouble recruiting new customers.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Mystery View Post
    I think the forthcoming wave with the Heavy Bombers may have 'jumped the shark' design wise. I just don't like the K-Wing or the TIE Punisher. Others will of course have their own equally valid opinions on that, and rightly so.
    Um... You're not a huge Star Wars fan, are you? It's hard for FFG to "jump the shark" with the design on those things.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/BTL-S8_K-wing_assault_starfighter
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/IT_Interdictor_starfighter

    They're established parts of the Star Wars lore (and, frankly, less shark-jumping than most Space Marine flyers' designs). So FFG isn't deciding to go crazy on design, they're just releasing more stuff from the Extended Universe (now "Legends"). Casual Star Wars fans might not know that, but some of us definitely recognize the stuff they're putting out.

  9. #79

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    Recognise AND HATE.

    So many better ships they could have used instead.

    Imma scratch-build a Missile Boat and proxy it as my TIE Punisher anna Skipray to be a Decimator.

  10. #80

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    That's pretty much the same as me.

    I get that they're canon, I just think they look bloody awful, especially the K-Wing.
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