When does the game end?

[Mr Mystery]

Odinsgrandson gets it

Lord of Change can indeed summon his Bros, as he has access to Summon Lord of Change on his own Warscroll.

But, whilst if we accept that he has access to all Chaos Wizard Summon X spells, he can't actually cast any others, as they're not on his scroll.

I'd also like to introduce more correct rules reading....

Lord of Change can't actually summon his Bros, and the same goes for any other summoning spells unless specifically listed as one of the spells the Wizard knows, such as a Branchwraith, who comes with a summoning spell as their third.

Pour quoi?

Simple.

A Lord of Change is Chaos; Wizard, these being two clearly defined key words upon its Warscroll.

Summon Lord of Change is known to Chaos Wizards - presented as a single Key Word.

If we take it as two separate key words, then all Wizards know all summoning spells all the time...

[Erik Setzer]

I'm still confused on how someone can simultaneously claim AoS is an awesome system with no issues, and then continue to show a huge issue with how the rules are written and laid out... and also complain about "competitive" players ruining the game, but then at the same keep arguing the cheekiest attempt at a RAW argument I've heard in a long time, an argument that goes against the "narrative" and the concept of just having a fun game. These arguments just make it clear the rules aren't written well and need expanding to explain them, and they're the worst kind of "competitive" nonsense I've seen lately.

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Odinsgrandson gets it

Lord of Change can indeed summon his Bros, as he has access to Summon Lord of Change on his own Warscroll.

But, whilst if we accept that he has access to all Chaos Wizard Summon X spells, he can't actually cast any others, as they're not on his scroll.

I'd also like to introduce more correct rules reading....

Lord of Change can't actually summon his Bros, and the same goes for any other summoning spells unless specifically listed as one of the spells the Wizard knows, such as a Branchwraith, who comes with a summoning spell as their third.

Pour quoi?

Simple.

A Lord of Change is Chaos; Wizard, these being two clearly defined key words upon its Warscroll.

Summon Lord of Change is known to Chaos Wizards - presented as a single Key Word.

If we take it as two separate key words, then all Wizards know all summoning spells all the time...

Are you reading what you're writing? This post is one of the single best anti-AoS posts I've seen on this site. Forget pricing or the Warmachine/old-school-Warzone style of the Sigmarines. This right here is like a huge sign reading "AoS is an awful game!"

So they include spells that were previously known, and in the narrative should be know, but because they tried to compact the rules into as small a space as possible, you're arguing that wizards can't know or cast them (and even if they did know them, they still can't cast them). The only way you can actually win that argument is to accept the game is badly, horribly broken.

I guess "congratulations" on being able to show everyone just how much of a mess AoS is as a game.

[Mr Mystery]

Because I'm deliberately pointing out very daft counters to very daft claims.

Intention to me is perfectly clear - if a unit is on the board and it has a summoning spell listed on its Warscroll, then Wizards of the correct allegiance have access to, and can cast, that spell - and yes I'll even agree that stands if the unit is wiped out before you get a chance to cast.

Just because I know how to rules lawyer, doesn't mean I ever actually do it. There's a lot of stuff I know how to do and do well that I see as inimicable to actually having fun, and ensuring my partner in said fun has an equally agreeably good time

[nsc]

Just because I know how to rules lawyer, doesn't mean I ever actually do it. There's a lot of stuff I know how to do and do well that I see as inimicable to actually having fun, and ensuring my partner in said fun has an equally agreeably good time

Phew, you had me going for a minute, sorry I'm used to some other...forums and they usually say things the way you do, but actually mean it.

Although you incorrectly concatenate two keywords into one, these keywords have been previously defined as separate entities and are presented together as a means to define units, to combine them together would be referencing your own set of keywords and not rules as written.

I weep for the day when any rule system needs a legal glossary to accompany them :P

[Mr Mystery]

Aha! So all Wizards know all summoning spells

Quickly Damsel! Summon a.....I dunno...erm...GREAT UNCLEAN ONE!

Don't wanna! Is icky!

DO IT, WOMAN!

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Ooop, hold on.....

Part of the argument for 'know all, all the time' is that one spell specifically requires the presence of a specific unit in order for Wizards to know it.

Time to piss on the chips of those hoping to spam summon.....

The necessity to be say, a Death Wizard as opposed to merely Death; Wizard is fully, 100%, ain't nowt you can argue here, supported by the Empire Battle Wizard scroll, which lists them as Wizard; Empire Battle Wizard. Two Key Words for the price of one, establishing that it is in fact only Chaos Wizards, Death Wizards et al that know the summoning spells, as dictated on a case by case basis.

Not of course that they can then cast them, the spells not being on the Casters own Warscroll, but someone else's. Provided of course you can find a Chaos Wizard Key Word in the first place.

Ithankyou.

[Erik Setzer]

I think the intent is pretty clear, that "Death Wizards" know the Undead summoning spells (which are actually limited from End Times), and "Chaos Wizards" know the Chaos summoning spells, without having to have a unit on the table, making summoning a moot point, and "Death Wizards" refers to warscrolls with "Death" and "Wizard" in their keywords while "Chaos Wizards" refers to warscrolls with "Chaos" and "Wizard" in their keywords.

Unfortunately, the rules are ambiguous, because they opted for four pages of core rules (eight pages would have likely given the room to clear up some of this stuff, but wouldn't be as cheap to print, I guess), and they tried to avoid having to repeat the same set of spells on every model who could cast them (which would have unnecessarily bloated the compendiums like crazy). Trying to go simple on the rules meant a poorly worded rule that's being used to argue against a narrative interpretation that makes a lot more sense.

If they do bother to do an FAQ and Errata, I have a feeling they'll actually be longer than the rules.

[odinsgrandson]

Odinsgrandson gets it

Lord of Change can indeed summon his Bros, as he has access to Summon Lord of Change on his own Warscroll.

But, whilst if we accept that he has access to all Chaos Wizard Summon X spells, he can't actually cast any others, as they're not on his scroll.

I'd also like to introduce more correct rules reading....

Lord of Change can't actually summon his Bros, and the same goes for any other summoning spells unless specifically listed as one of the spells the Wizard knows, such as a Branchwraith, who comes with a summoning spell as their third.

Pour quoi?

Simple.

A Lord of Change is Chaos; Wizard, these being two clearly defined key words upon its Warscroll.

Summon Lord of Change is known to Chaos Wizards - presented as a single Key Word.

If we take it as two separate key words, then all Wizards know all summoning spells all the time...

Except that the core rules do not require that a wizard "Know" a spell- he simply has to have it on his warscroll.

Lord of Change is a wizard
Lord of Change has "Summon Lord of Change" on his warscroll
Lord of Change may cast "Summon Lord of Change"

[Mr Mystery]

Well struck sir, well struck

[odinsgrandson]

Intention to me is perfectly clear - if a unit is on the board and it has a summoning spell listed on its Warscroll, then Wizards of the correct allegiance have access to, and can cast, that spell - and yes I'll even agree that stands if the unit is wiped out before you get a chance to cast.

I honestly think the intention is for there to be no need for the unit to have been on the table for you to have access to the spells, and I honestly believe that is the intention (for you to be able to summon hordes or daemons or skeletons out of nowhere).

[Mr Mystery]

Nah. I just don't buy that.

I kind of see where people are coming from, I just don't think that's the designer's intent.