Grav Cannon, Oh Myyyy!

[Path Walker]

The real problem isn't that Grav Cannons are good against high toughness foes, or good against heavily armoured foes... it's that they're good against both at the same time, while putting out tons of shots and rerolling failed wounds AND being good against vehicles. Poisoned weapons generally have lousy AP, mediocre rates of fire, and are useless against vehicles and GMCs. Fleshbane likewise generally wounds really well, but isn't going through armour very well and is rarely on a weapon that's good against vehicles (the one exception, wychblades, was nerfed hard vs vehicles in 6th to the point that they're almost worthless against them).

Being good at everything, plus access to drop pods that let them get to where they need to be without any chance of mishap or being shot down, is really why Grav weapons are a problem. Even their price isn't an issue since SM can get 500+ points of free transports in the Gladius detachment which frees up points for expensive toys.

for the Space Marines to get free transports, you have to pack in a lot of units, you need a full company, so two Battle Demi Companies, with everything else bare bones, you're talking 1250 points just to get the 2 Devestator squads with Gravs in drop pods, if you want anything else that's not 5 man tactical squads or attack bikes the points will add up very quickly. Hell, play 1200 point games and its not even possible.

[Reldane]

Poisoned weapons generally have lousy AP, mediocre rates of fire, and are useless against vehicles and GMCs. Fleshbane likewise generally wounds really well, but isn't going through armour very well and is rarely on a weapon that's good against vehicles (the one exception, wychblades, was nerfed hard vs vehicles in 6th to the point that they're almost worthless against them).

The existence of poison and fleshbane isn't what I am opposed to, merely making either of them army wide themes. I know dark eldar aren't in an ideal place, however with their basic weaponry all being poisoned 4+ a Nurgle Chaos Biker is slightly less effective than a unmarked Raptor despite a 9pt per model increase in cost. In my mind at least an upgrade should well upgrade your model, not leave them the same or worse.

[Charon]

You could make the same claim for Poison, Fleshbane or Sniper with regards to Toughness, though. The Armour Save thing is a fair point, though.

Armor save, no drawback against GMC, number of shots, built in rerolls, availability

It costs 7x what a Guardman does, or 12x a Conscript. There's much better and scarier things to those guys than a handful of Grav Cannons. :P

And why you do not point the gun on a that Pask Leamn Russ Punisher then? I have seen no army yet (that includes hordes) that do run without any value targets for gravguns. Every MC in a Nid army, Vehicles/artillery in an orc horde, Tanks in a Guard army, Vehicles and MC in a Dark Eldar army.
Basically the Gravcannon centurions will take out a Leman Russ behind cover in a single volley. There are ALWAYS targets.

[CoffeeGrunt]

The existence of poison and fleshbane isn't what I am opposed to, merely making either of them army wide themes. I know dark eldar aren't in an ideal place, however with their basic weaponry all being poisoned 4+ a Nurgle Chaos Biker is slightly less effective than a unmarked Raptor despite a 9pt per model increase in cost. In my mind at least an upgrade should well upgrade your model, not leave them the same or worse.

It does upgrade your model, against any other kind of weapon it gives you a slight edge. Dark Lances don't inflict Instant Death on a T5 target, Disintegrators find it tougher to Wound them, Incubi have a hard time landing Wounds, etc, etc.

Dark Eldar's ubiquitous Poison on their standard weapons makes them good against high-Toughness targets, but mediocre against low-Toughness targets, and utterly useless against vehicles.

[Fueldrop]

The existence of poison and fleshbane isn't what I am opposed to, merely making either of them army wide themes. I know dark eldar aren't in an ideal place, however with their basic weaponry all being poisoned 4+ a Nurgle Chaos Biker is slightly less effective than a unmarked Raptor despite a 9pt per model increase in cost. In my mind at least an upgrade should well upgrade your model, not leave them the same or worse.

I agree. As a Dark Eldar player myself I'm far from thrilled at the 1-note nature of the army. Ranged? You can have poison for toughness or lance for vehicle. Melee? You can have S 3, Poison, or slow moving monster.

Poison is a nice rule. It's not enough to hold up an army on its own.

RE: Upgrades and survival.

I agree that if you're paying points for something, it should measurably improve the unit in some way. In the instance of Nurgle Bikers, the increase is really a poor choice against DE since jumping from T5 to T6 has no effect on poison and no effect on S3 melee. However, it does offer protection from the only dedicated heavy-infantry killer in the army: the Disintegrator Cannon. The upgrade ends up protection you from the rapid fire S 5 AP 2 weapon that would otherwise cut through you and/or force jink.

On the flip side of that, not every upgrade should be good against every army. Using DE again as an example, Soulfright weaponry is very good against anything with mediocre leadership and without fearless or ATSKNF. Awesome verses Tau, worthless vs Space Marines. Haywire weapons: Fantastic vs enemy armour, worthless vs 'nids and daemons. Sometimes upgrades just aren't right for that battle.

[Reldane]

It does upgrade your model, against any other kind of weapon it gives you a slight edge. Dark Lances don't inflict Instant Death on a T5 target, Disintegrators find it tougher to Wound them, Incubi have a hard time landing Wounds, etc, etc.

except none of those are the basic gun of the main infantry of the army, nor does instant death come up in this case. a Dark eldar army can easily field no disintegratoes, or Incubi but can not field an army with no poison. don't get me wrong I am not trying to suggest that splinter weapons are in anyway broken, just that I don't approve of the way they where designed.

Dark Eldar's ubiquitous Poison on their standard weapons makes them good against high-Toughness targets, but mediocre against low-Toughness targets, and utterly useless against vehicles.

against most armies (why are there so many marine armies?) splinter weapons are directly comparable to bolters the closest to base line that 40k has for ranged weapons. yes into a several armies they do become weaker than bolters but in a most of cases (Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Tau) those armies also field higher toughness units alongside the T3 ones.

yes they are useless into vehicles, not really much different from bolters. even into an armour 10 all round vehicle they are slightly better than splinter weapons into a wraithknight which as you have already highlighted (I believe) is not very. and that's not even taking lasguns/stubguns into account.

[Charon]

yes they are useless into vehicles, not really much different from bolters. even into an armour 10 all round vehicle they are slightly better than splinter weapons into a wraithknight which as you have already highlighted (I believe) is not very. and that's not even taking lasguns/stubguns into account.

Against most armies the DE poison is a bolter equivalent with the option of getting worse against the other armies (T3). T5+ is quite rare and even then there is some kind of save most of the time. Bolters against an AV10 vehicle are WAY more efficient that splinter weapons against a wraithknight as Vehicles do lack an armor save and do not roll FnP.
Also as a fun fact. Space Marines have better poison weapons than DE.

[Fueldrop]

Against most armies the DE poison is a bolter equivalent with the option of getting worse against the other armies (T3). T5+ is quite rare and even then there is some kind of save most of the time. Bolters against an AV10 vehicle are WAY more efficient that splinter weapons against a wraithknight as Vehicles do lack an armor save and do not roll FnP.
Also as a fun fact. Space Marines have better poison weapons than DE.

Fun fact about that fun fact: You can have your vets with underbarrel grav on their 2+ poison. Just in case.

[CoffeeGrunt]

against most armies (why are there so many marine armies?) splinter weapons are directly comparable to bolters the closest to base line that 40k has for ranged weapons. yes into a several armies they do become weaker than bolters but in a most of cases (Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Tau) those armies also field higher toughness units alongside the T3 ones.

yes they are useless into vehicles, not really much different from bolters. even into an armour 10 all round vehicle they are slightly better than splinter weapons into a wraithknight which as you have already highlighted (I believe) is not very. and that's not even taking lasguns/stubguns into account.

Especially consider Gargantuans are only Wounded on 6s by Poison or Sniper. Grav really gets the edge there, as they're effectively Lascannon strength against WKs.

Just saying that Poison on basic Infantry weapons isn't that bad considering DE Kabalites cost the same as Fire Warriors or Skitarii Vanguard, IIRC. (9pts.) I'd say Bladestorm on basic weapons negates paying for good armour more, but I imagine we're all very much aware that Eldar get too many nice toys. :P

[Reldane]

T5+ is quite rare: except for Space Marine Bikes, Centurions, Eldar Wraithguard, Cult Mechanicus Kataphrons, Necron Imortals

so I would disagree, in the current meta I do not feel that T5+ is all that rare.

a poison weapon has a 2 in 81 chance to cause a wound on a wraithknight. a str 4 weapon has a 1/9 chance to inflict a hull point, before fairly easily available cover saves are taken (5+ 2 in 27, 4+ 1 in 18 and 3+ 1 in 27)

so yes str 4 weapons do better into av 10 vehicles than poisoned weapons do into wraithknights. however neither work particularly well. now I am sure that many Dark eldar players feel like bolters tear though their transports but personal experience is always subject to bias.

and yes sternguard poison irks me just as much

Just saying that Poison on basic Infantry weapons isn't that bad considering DE Kabalites cost the same as Fire Warriors or Skitarii Vanguard, IIRC.

I am not saying that Dark eldar are in any way broken just that I disagree with the design of splinter weapons for the same reason as I do grav weapons