Grav Cannon, Oh Myyyy!

[Katharon]

So I faced a rather intimidating list yesterday in a friendly game. I brought a fluffy but semi-competitive list of Abaddon with Chosen. I'll give you our two lists below:


Chaos Space Marine List

HQ
Abaddon (Warlord)
Kharn the Betrayer

Troops
Chosen Squad: 1 extra CSM, 5 x Plasma Guns, MoN, 1 x power weapon + Rhino with havoc launcher, combi-bolter, and dirge caster
Chosen Squad: 1 extra CSM, 5 x Plasma guns, MoN, 1 x power weapon
Chosen Squad: 1 extra CSM, 5 x melta guns, MoN, 1 x power weapon + Rhino with havoc launcher, combi-bolter, and dirge caster
Chosen Squad: 1 extra CSM, 5 x melta guns, MoN, 1 x power weapon + Rhino with havoc launcher, combi-bolter, and dirge caster

Elites
Chaos Terminators: chainfist, MoZ, + Land Raider with havoc launcher, dirge caster



Space Marine Army List

HQ
Librarian - Divination (Warlord)

Troops
Tactical Squad: Flamer + Drop Pod
Tactical Squad: Flamer + Drop Pod

Fast Attack
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

Heavy Support
Centurion Devastator Squad: Grav Cannons
Centurion Devastator Squad: Grav Cannons

Formation
Skyhammer Annihilation Force

• Assault Squad: 10x Marines + flamer + melta bomb
• Assault Squad: 10x Marines + flamer + melta bomb
• Devastator Squad: 4 x Grav cannons & grav amp, 5 x extra marines
• Devastator Squad: 4 x Grav cannons & grav amp, 5 x extra marines

---------------


After that I don't think I need to describe to you how the battle went. I was wiped except for a single Rhino (which was on its last hull point) on the end of turn two. I managed to have Abaddon get into assault and wiped out one Devastator Squad and Kharn wiped out one Assault squad, but other than that I inflicted no losses on the Space Marines.

Observations

(1) My opponent really played well and did an excellent job of making his list. He purposefully had a third drop pod to allow his Grav Centurions to come in Turn 1 alongside the Skyhammer Annihilation force.

(2) Considering their effects, I feel like Grav Cannons need to be adjusted somehow. I'm not sure how you could do it, but the fact that they're AP2 is just *ugh*. I spent the entire game trying to make a 5+ FnP or a 4++ Invul save against a stupidly large number of shots. Reducing Grav Cannons to something like 'Salvo 2/3' and Grav Guns to 'Salvo 1/2' might make them a bit more chill. Still strong, but definitely more chill.

(3) The way in which the Vehicle Damage Chart functions in regards to multiple Immobilized results needs change imho. He was firing 20 grav shots at my land raider and got six sixes, causing a total of 11 Hull Points to be removed, of which I managed to get a small cover save and blocked 2 hits from going through; obviously I still lost my Land Raider. I believe that in the wake of grav weaponry becoming so popular, that the Vehicle Damage Chart should no longer award an additional HP removed for each additional Immobilized result after the first. Instead, if they make the attack and it successfully get's through, then it's a single Hull Point removed, not two. And come on, when you're firing 20 shots, you kind of don't need those multipliers.

(4) Grav Cannons make Wraithknights weep and as such I an torn between wanting to change them and wanting to see more Eldar tears.

(5) I'm going to go with giant hordes of cultists from now on when playing my friend's Cheese Army.

[Charon]

I fail to see the "semi-competitive" side of your army.

Let the fact aside that he plays a very powerful codex and a quite competitive list which should be an auto win against even a very good Chaos army list.

So I don't really see your point.

[Katharon]

I fail to see the "semi-competitive" side of your army.

Let the fact aside that he plays a very powerful codex and a quite competitive list which should be an auto win against even a very good Chaos army list.

So I don't really see your point.

The point is that grav weaponry is overpowered.

And my army list there went to the semi-finals in a tournament with 20 players.

[Charon]

Grav weapons are fine rules wise. Their availability though is overinflated.

[Denzark]

Hmmm. multiple 5 weapon squads. Threat range on foot: 30" for 5 plasma shots per squad, 18" for 5 melta. On Rhino: 30" with 2 plasma shots, 36" with 2 snapshots. melta 18 and 24" respectively.

Your army relies on getting everything close to use its strength - massed low AP fire. His army also has mass low AP fire - that outranges yours.

I can see the problem here...

[Charon]

Hmmm. multiple 5 weapon squads.

multiple OVERCOSTED 5 weapon squads. One of these 6 model units (with transport) is around 270 points. Thats nearly the points of a Strenght D Bloodthirster without having the same impact. Or 40 points more than 3 MoN Obliterators.

[Fueldrop]

This is why you bubble wrap with a few units of cultists. Either you get 4+ cover from being behind a unit, or they're spamming grav against 6+ armour. Careful placement can help with the stupid good Skyhammer, but really there's a limit to what you can do against that kind of army with a low-tier force of your own.

Of course at that point the flamers become a problem...

[CoffeeGrunt]

You only get a 5+ for shooting through other units. Grav weapons are also useless against non Power Armour armies, but as you're playing CSM, that's what you've got. Tying up the Centurions in CC is an option that could keep them off your back, but this guy's running a pretty nasty list.

[Katharon]

Grav weapons are fine rules wise. Their availability though is overinflated.

I would also say that they're drastically under-costed.

- - - Updated - - -

You only get a 5+ for shooting through other units. Grav weapons are also useless against non Power Armour armies, but as you're playing CSM, that's what you've got. Tying up the Centurions in CC is an option that could keep them off your back, but this guy's running a pretty nasty list.

Like I said, I never even got close enough to much CC-wise. He Drop podded in and turned my mechanized force into a footslogging force on turn one and murdered a squad right off the bat. Turn two he murdered everything else, especially since Abaddon and Kharn both tore through their targets easily and so couldn't stay locked in combat to avoid enemy fire. It was just a grav-weapon firing squad execution.

[Fueldrop]

Daemonic allies might be good. After all, Grav weapons are literally useless against them and Daemonettes get rending to deal with the centurions.