Death Clock - Balancing a system without Points

[Mr Mystery]

Surely whomever goes first is at a massive disadvantage, as they could run out of time before their opponent has had a chance to?

It's an interesting approach, but I'm just not sure it's at all practical. The game's design isn't for time constrained play, so introducing it may not work all that well.

[9breaker]

Surely whomever goes first is at a massive disadvantage, as they could run out of time before their opponent has had a chance to?

It's an interesting approach, but I'm just not sure it's at all practical. The game's design isn't for time constrained play, so introducing it may not work all that well.

I would argue that most games were not designed with time constraints in mind, but most tournament scenes enforce a time constraint to the game anyways. I feel that the death clock model is better, as it discourages underhanded tactics (like the issue with "sandbagging" brought up earlier), and highlights the skill of the player to make good decisions in a quick and timely manner.

As for the disadvantages of going first, that would depend on the force that you bring and your deployment strategy. The point of using the death clock is that each side should deploy with the time limit and scenario in mind.

Of course a comp system is needed such as limiting the number of heroes/monsters, duplicate warscrolls, limiting the number of wounds per unit. Discouraging skaven and goblin players is certainly a legit concern though. What we need is for GW to add a keyword "Horde" to certain units. This way we can adjust the comp rules so that these units can be fielded with larger number of wounds (so if the normal limit is say 20 wounds, you up the limit to 30-40 wounds for horde units).

[nsc]

"Kingston comp" does this "horde" comp that you're mentioning.

What you do is you look at the warscroll, and if a unit has a "regimental bonus" for having X models, you're allowed max X+10 for that unit.

For example Clanrats have +1 to wound rolls if they have 20 or more models. If the unit has more than 30 models you can add 1 to their hit and wound rolls, as such they can take a maximum of 40 models in a single unit.

[odinsgrandson]

Without any other composition restrictions, surely this will encourage 'elite' forces made up largely of heroes and monsters.

My concern would be that it would put anybody off from attempting to play Skaven or Goblins, just as much as saying that one Skaven slave is worth the same as a Phoenix Guard.

Definitely true. Horde forces are definitely discouraged by this- but that's kind of true fro the whole system, isn't it?

The OP suggested including hero and monster limits as well (so you aren't up against nothing but dragons and greater demons).

Surely whomever goes first is at a massive disadvantage, as they could run out of time before their opponent has had a chance to?

It's an interesting approach, but I'm just not sure it's at all practical. The game's design isn't for time constrained play, so introducing it may not work all that well.

The first turn tends to be the fastest one, and lends itself its own advantage. I doubt that'll make such a big difference (it doesn't seem to put players at a disadvantage in Chess or Warmachine/Hordes).

I actually think this game does want a time constraint- the game has rules for ending early because one of the players has something else to do- AND it is the only way for the disadvantage of summoning to come up.

[nsc]

Horde forces are definitely discouraged by this- but that's kind of true fro the whole system, isn't it?

Well, no, if you have one big unit, which you can then put mystic shield on, you're getting +1 armour, you can use inspiring presence to make this huge unit immune to battleshock, if you use another power you still get +1 bravery per every 10 models, and most importantly models (and therefore units) can divide their attacks against any model in range, so units aren't limited to attacking the same target. This means that if you're going first or even second in a combat round, when you activate this unit, you'll do a load of damage.

Example, player A controls units 1, 2 and 3, they're 10 gors each. Player B controls unit zeta, it's 30 gors. Player A activates unit 1 and kills 3 gors, player B activates unit zeta and kills 10 gors from units 2 and 3.
Hordes of models offer a very strong alpha strike potential at the start of the combat round, they're more resistant to battle-shock and they can be buffed defensively more easily (also more efficiently).

I actually think this game does want a time constraint- the game has rules for ending early because one of the players has something else to do- AND it is the only way for the disadvantage of summoning to come up.

Could be true, the warhammer world event has a time constraint after all.

[Mr Mystery]

All games have some kind of time constraint - unless you're lucky enough to not only have room for a gaming board and scenery collection, but the reasonable option of leaving a game set up overnight/over the week.

But Tournaments bring a much tighter timescale to things, opening up slow play as an actual tactic.

So small scale games - whether by point restriction or the games inherent design (hello X-Wing!) work better if you've got perhaps a couple of hours or less to crack through it. But 1,750 points of 40k? Some army builds, if not some armies, are unnaturally handicapped there.

Good example for 8th Ed? Goblins. I love Gobbos me. You can fit a heck of a lot into 1,750 points, and a decent variety. But....if you've got a strict time limit, many of those options lose their appeal, adding a restriction to the sort of force you might want to field. And you may find yourself limited to the point where you just can't play the army in your preferred, well practiced manner. Me? I love my daft stuff. Give me Fanatics and Squigs running all over the shop. Give me multiple 30ish strong units of Gobbos so I can squeeze more in at the price of riskier Animosity issues. Played right, I can completely cover my unit's flanks, because there's no chance to squeeze between my units to get them - and your Deathstar unit, if it's not careful, may face two, perhaps three units of worth Fanatics getting in the way when you charge, with the very real risk of them inflicting horrific damage.

Except....that many random rolls slows down the game. Tournament style time restrictions can quickly render that force a poor experience for both.

[Xaric]

I like this idea