Balancing AoS, hidden in plain sight?

[grimmas]

You can both find yourselves a bridge to hide under and harass goats. Be on topic or don't bother.

[Caitsidhe]

You can both find yourselves a bridge to hide under and harass goats. Be on topic or don't bother.

That's cute. I am on topic. The question is whether or not balancing AOS is hidden in plain sight. It isn't. Don't think I haven't tried.

[40kGamer]

I don't see this mechanic working any better than the 101 other ways people are tossing about. The 'game' as it exists today is as beer and pretzels as it gets.

[Erik Setzer]

You can both find yourselves a bridge to hide under and harass goats. Be on topic or don't bother.

I was on topic, and if you want to claim I'm not just because I wasn't raving about AoS, then *you* are the one trolling here.

I might have been a bit harsh in my commentary, and I was actually coming back to the topic to say that, but thank you for demonstrating why I'm harsher toward AoS in my words than actions. (And by actions, I mean the fact I have two armies specifically for AoS, the limited edition first book, and the regular edition of the second book, and have even tried to convince a friend that it's not as bad as people at the GW store make it look... as long as he doesn't play with those specific people.) The game has flaws, but anyone who points that out is immediately beset upon by people who think only praise of the Almighty Games Workshop can be allowed, and that level of trolling is really grating and annoying.

This topic is about balancing AoS. It is *perfectly* on-topic to remind you that the game isn't intended to be balanced and isn't really intended as a game in the traditional sense (being that it's hard to fairly determine winner or loser when there's no way to know your forces are at least meant to be balanced). You're trying to fundamentally change the game.

If you mean to suggest this topic is limited specifically to the idea of balance through money - and I'd wonder why, in addition to his other comments, you aren't calling Mr. Mystery a troll as well, given he went "off topic" - then I'll just note that it's a bad idea. You can't match things up by price. A 10 man unit of Empire State Troops costs about the same as a basic artillery piece. A Stormcast Eternals character with a pet costs as much as a unit of six Ogres. Monsters range in price from $58 to $116, and I'm not sure it's a fair fight to sic two Arachnarok Spiders on a single lone Bloodthirster. Even more so with Thundertusks. Ten Witch Elves are $60, are they more effective than a Dreadlord on a Black Dragon?

You might be genuinely trying to correct the biggest problem with Age of Sigmar through a simple means, and I applaud you for at least trying to put some effort in, but the pricing schemes mean that solution just doesn't work. The core concept that price goes up as effectiveness goes up is a sound concept for most units, but falls apart completely when you start looking into characters, or different materials. Even within the same unit types, it has some issues. Unfortunately, there's no way to make simple tweaks to that system to make it effective. (And it also assumes no one will use non-GW models, unless you're just basing it on what the GW equivalent of a model would cost, which I suppose would clear that hurdle.)

It's not a criticism of you personally that the idea doesn't work, but, well, it doesn't.

[grimmas]

You pair of clowns Are you seriously trying to argue with the bloke who wrote the thread what it's about I'm staggered by your arrogance. You haven't even really read it have you? Because you seem to be asking questions that it answers. No Casithde that's not really the topic it's a head line. You're not going to like it though or even try what I suggest. So why bother? No need to reply it's rehtorical ( also I won't see it).


40Kgamer I think my use of the term balance has been a little misleading I was thinking more of a quick and easy way to get the forces roughly aligned to streamline things and allow for people to be able to plan a little in advance so that they could all turn up with the same sort of stuff. A sort of case of "everyone trun up with £200 worth and we can all have a few games" rather than serious tournament stuff. I think it also adds a bit more scope than wound or model count would without getting to bogged down. Let's face it 40K has points and they don't really balance that either they just give an indication that both forces are roughly at the right level. I'm still talking beer and pretzels as you like to say just with a little control to make life easier.

[Mr Mystery]

What the last guy said. The outcome of AOS games is entirely random, or entirely predetermined (in the case of just bringing enough to roll the opponent). There is no middle ground. Your personal input and skill are really unimportant.

Utter nonsense.

I've got a mere handful of games under my belt, and I'm rather enjoying figuring the new system out. To say the outcome is pre-determined or completely random kind of shows you've not played the game, and if you have, it was an exercise in propping up your pre-judged opinion.

[40kGamer]

40Kgamer I think my use of the term balance has been a little misleading I was thinking more of a quick and easy way to get the forces roughly aligned to streamline things and allow for people to be able to plan a little in advance so that they could all turn up with the same sort of stuff. A sort of case of "everyone trun up with £200 worth and we can all have a few games" rather than serious tournament stuff. I think it also adds a bit more scope than wound or model count would without getting to bogged down. Let's face it 40K has points and they don't really balance that either they just give an indication that both forces are roughly at the right level. I'm still talking beer and pretzels as you like to say just with a little control to make life easier.

Got it! Anything that let's a person plan ahead is a step in the right direction in my mind. I agree that 40k points have become more cumbersome than meaningful over the years. Points have never been perfect but they've always been a nice little option for pick up games. No clear way to even rough out a game is my biggest gripe with the new system.

[grimmas]

To develop this idea further and to pick up on a point Ben_S made. One which I haven't experienced as we've all just used balanced forces in my group. It's still valid though and it's the point that characters and units have never really been rated on a level, it springs to mind that this would also be the case with monsters and warmachines.

To solve this I going to suggest borrowing form 8th ed and you could use a force organisation of sorts. This is of course complicating things up a little but give it a go and let me know.

It will look like this

Warscrolls with the listed key word can only make up the listed percentage of the total spend

HERO - 25%
WARMACHINE/MONSTER 50%

If a Warscroll possesses both of the above keywords you may choose which allowance it come from.

The usual caveat applies this isnt going to produce minute levels of balance. just enough to allow for pick up play.

[daboarder]

Utter nonsense.

I've got a mere handful of games under my belt, and I'm rather enjoying figuring the new system out. To say the outcome is pre-determined or completely random kind of shows you've not played the game, and if you have, it was an exercise in propping up your pre-judged opinion.

anecdotes do not equal fact (for either of you) so maybe dont act like your opinion is fact and try not attack other posters for a change Mystery

[Mr Mystery]

His statement was that in AoS, games are either entirely predetermined through poor sportsmanship, or else utterly random with no player skill involved.

And you don't consider that to be a nonsense statement?

Okay. Here's a little more flavour to the dish.

Soon as the AoS leaks/previews came out, Caitsidhe had written it off, claiming it was going to bomb, and nobody was interested in it. All before he'd even played a single game. Hence my comment about a pre-judged position seeking confirmation biased support.

The situation Caitsidhe described is not my experience of the game - nor have I heard or read anyone else claiming such a baseless position.

Yes, there are those still concerned about what someone determined to abuse the open nature of force selection could do. Yes, there are ongoing (entirely laudable) efforts to come up with some kind of shared points based system. Neither of those, nor anything else offers even a shred of support to the game being either pre-determined or completely random.

It's the unsubstantiated opinion of someone who has an axe to grind, and is determined to shriek at a whale about it. It's not even an anecdote. Anecdotes tend to be story based - comments such as 'I played a game, and X happened. This is worrying to me'. What Caitsidhe has offered up is a baseless statement. It's not substantiated, and it's not plausible.

But by all means, continue to only drop into threads when you have something snarky to say. I'm sure you enjoy it immensely.