Is 30k better than 40k?

[Gamgee]

Like, I get that statistically, there have to be people who think that way. And, you know, fair play to you - everyone's entitled to like what they like. But...

Man. That's like hearing someone buys a Cornetto to eat the cone and leave the ice-cream. I can kind of see why they might feel that way, but I can only manage to in the most abstract possible sense.

We get that exact same look from his brother and a lot of other players. Hahah.

Tau, Dark Eldar, and Necrons are my style.

He is an IG, Imperial Knights, and Admech/Skitarii man. Only plays IG but says if he had more cash he would start those armies. His brother is a Chaos Space Marine and Space Marine player (also the youngest of our gaming group) and regrets not picking Spezz Marines over the chaos marines though would collect and play both if he had cash. We also have an Nids and Ork lover who isn't overly fond of the Imperium either. Although he doesn't take our hard stance on Space Marines. Finally another guy who doesn't have the cash to play says he would play Tau as well. Most of us just find the Imperium too stupid and the majority of Space Marine chapters too derp. Uh sorry if that offends you. I know it triggers some space marine fans.

We're a fairly unusual group in that regard.

For the record I'm both lactose intolerant and have fructose malabsorbtion. Ice cream and a lot of sugary stuff are simply out of the question for me since even a small bite has usually more sugar than my daily limit will allow. I can and even have to have sugars, but only a very small amount at a time spread out through the day. Definitely a strange person by most accounts. I have to eat a very unusual diet or take pills that can help me eat stuff with lactose in it. Either way.

[Filthy Casual]

Its not offensive, its just dismissive of a lot of really cool fluff, especially the Horus Heresy era books and novels.

I collect Imperial Army (Solar Auxillia) and Mechanicus for HH myself, lots of big stompy robots, little nippy robots, a Knight or two and then a load of blokes with lasguns, not an Astartes in sight.

[Defenestratus]

Don't play Warmachine - for goodness, sake, don't play Warmachine!

Me, I kind of hope we'll see some kind of Heresy/Crusade era Xenos nasties. Given Necrons, Orks and Eldar don't exactly change their technology well....ever, the existing plastic range is good to go. Just need some 'before the Imperium flattened us' type ming.

Actually before I even read your comment I was going to amend my post and say...

"this is the same reason I loathe and despise warmachine... every single game I see of warmachine being played looks like every other game. One big model on either side surrounded by a circle of smaller models - almost always all of them unpainted and only primed with little to no terrain."

If you want sides that are equal to each other but of a different color, go play chess.

Personally I find variety to be the spice of life - and its why I'll always bring Eldar with me to a casual gaming group where I don't have a scheduled game since I know I'm not likely to get a pickup game against another Eldar player. My BAGK stay in their totes usually unless someone really wants to play against them.

[Gamgee]

Actually before I even read your comment I was going to amend my post and say...

"this is the same reason I loathe and despise warmachine... every single game I see of warmachine being played looks like every other game. One big model on either side surrounded by a circle of smaller models - almost always all of them unpainted and only primed with little to no terrain."

If you want sides that are equal to each other but of a different color, go play chess.

Personally I find variety to be the spice of life - and its why I'll always bring Eldar with me to a casual gaming group where I don't have a scheduled game since I know I'm not likely to get a pickup game against another Eldar player. My BAGK stay in their totes usually unless someone really wants to play against them.

Warmachines reminds me of the final destination fox only player crowd. Hahahah if anyone gets that joke. I always hope 40k's balance will improve, but I like diversity more.

[Filthy Casual]

Warmachines reminds me of the final destination fox only player crowd. Hahahah if anyone gets that joke. I always hope 40k's balance will improve, but I like diversity more.

I've seen the analogy used before, its apt, a lot of people are mad about 40K having a lot of randomness and silly stuff, but I think that's fun, like Smash with all the items turned on. Yes, the "best" player might not always win because things go badly for them but everyone will still have fun.

[Chris*ta]

You very much can invent a Chapter for 30k. Because Chapters were part of the larger Legion - and after the Heresy, it was those Legion Chapters that became, you guessed it....Chapters.

Flesh Tearers? Already there. They were a Chapter within the Blood Angels, and one that had a pretty heavy rep.

The predilictions of the modern Chapter reflect not only their parent Legion (assuming that's known) but the traditions of their parent Chapter within that Legion.

Want a unique force? Pick a Legion, then design your own heraldry to represent a particular Chapter (of your own devising) within said Legion.

Like your Drop Pods and your Meltas? Why not do an 'Imperial Fist' Chapter renowned for it's somewhat unhinged approach of landing behind the enemy fortifications, and just like Vyvyan in the pilot episode of The Young Ones, surprise the rest of the Legion when they turn up to find the building demolished from within?

Why do they do it? Perhaps it's a bit of the old Black Templar temperament showing through during the Great Crusade. Perhaps the Chapter takes in Legionaries from elsewhere within the Legion - those who have, or feel they have, failed in some way? Maybe it's a penitence thing - throwing themselves into the jaws of hell to recover their honour? Maybe they're just a bit loopy. Who knows? You do, if you choose it.

I did cover that. No, you can't, except you can if you want. The HH books are a guide to a 'historical' game, but they still contain scope for freedom if you really can't find one Legion out of 18 to appeal to you. And while I didn't mention it before, lest we forget, two Legions are 'missing' - their absence was designed entirely for that purpose.

Except it's not a Chapter. You can't paint them in your own colour scheme, because they're part of the parent Legion and have to look like the parent Legion. And the other two Legions is a terrible argument. There has never been any fluff anyone's created around them that hasn't been awful.

You see a separation between fluff/crunch.
I do not. Fluff and crunch are absolutely linked in FW products and to discount one because it's 'game' rather than 'story' is just silly.

Not what I'm saying. Comparing the 30K Legion list and the 40K Chapter list and saying, one let's you take units of 20 armed just with bolters, the other units of 10, with bolters and a couple of other weapons is not relevant. What I'm saying is that the "spirit" of, say, the Imperial Fists is largely the same, whether at 30K or 40K, and, while the rules for one or the other might let you reflect that spirit better, what you're representing, the Imperial Fists, is basically the same.

[Mr Mystery]

Oh you can indeed.

There's Imperial Fists already in Black Armour, with only their Shoulder Pads in the heraldic Yellow.

Could be camo. Could skybluepink. They're your models dude.

[Haighus]

Except it's not a Chapter. You can't paint them in your own colour scheme, because they're part of the parent Legion and have to look like the parent Legion. And the other two Legions is a terrible argument. There has never been any fluff anyone's created around them that hasn't been awful.

Well, there is actually a lot of scope within the overall Legion colour schemes to have units and formations with unique battle honours requiring a different colour scheme, which are usually variations on the general Legion scheme, but can be surprisingly different. A bit of backstory as to why your particular force has a divergent scheme and you are away. Here is an example of an Imperial Fist in a heavily modified scheme.

Here is another Imperial Fist from a different Company:

There are also examples of loyalist Death Guard having escaped Isstvan and taking up the old heraldry of the Dusk Raiders:


Not to mention that the Legions were only whole entities at the beginning of the Horus Heresy, after the Dropsite Massacre especially many of them fragmented, particularly the Iron Hands but the 3 Loyalist legions become referred to as the Shattered Legions after the Massacre. Many Marines forsake their original Legion ties, and go rogue, or on personal quests of vengeance, often removing their iconography and changing their colours. Within this is a significant amount of free rein to create your own Legion force that has no ties to one of the Legions proper, merely uses their tactics and demeanour as a hold over of their training, but with entirely unique heraldry. This is Redemption of battlegroup Revenant, and is from an unknown Legion with unique heraldry:


I can keep finding examples like these, FW has seeded their books with many, many options for heavily customising the Legion forces, which is before even including the Militia and Mechanicum lists. The Solar Auxilia is actually by far the most homogeneous force other than the Knight list, and that is because it is really a specific example of the Imperialis Auxilia.

The Horus Heresy is when the Legions were sundered and became Chapters/Warbands. What Guilliman did post-Heresy was formalise the break up and extend it to the Legions that had remained unified, but many of the Legions had already fragmented. One of the coolest things about the FW books for me is seeing the little nods to later Chapters contained within the Legions, where it is obvious that a particular force will become a Chapter in the future; the forces under Seneschal Rahn becoming the Executioners or the Morragul clan based upon the warship the Red Talon becoming the Red Talons.

Not what I'm saying. Comparing the 30K Legion list and the 40K Chapter list and saying, one let's you take units of 20 armed just with bolters, the other units of 10, with bolters and a couple of other weapons is not relevant. What I'm saying is that the "spirit" of, say, the Imperial Fists is largely the same, whether at 30K or 40K, and, while the rules for one or the other might let you reflect that spirit better, what you're representing, the Imperial Fists, is basically the same.

That isn't really true though, the Imperial Fists Chapter is one condensed aspect of the Imperial Fists Legion, they have retained one aspect of the Legion, its flair for siege craft especially and it's culture of honour, but lost other aspects based on which Marines originally stayed with the parent Chapter. However, the most brutal Imperial Fists left to join the Executioners, the most zealous are in the Black Templars, the most stubborn and enduring are in the Excoriators, so each of these successor Chapters maintains a different aspect of the original Legion, but the Legion was the sum of them all.


I can understand not liking the lack of xenos in 30k though, that is something that annoys me, but then I play both 40k and 30k. I can't see FW missing the opportunity for including more xenos in 30k in the future though. At the moment, the only xenos are from the Immaterium in the form of Daemons.


Hehe ninja'd on the black Imperial Fists by Mr Mystery

[DaveTycho]

The books simply state that the game is not balanced for such play, so you'll have to discuss with an opponent beforehand to make the battle fair. There are plenty of references to HH marines fighting Orks and the like in the official books. So yeah, anyone who says 'There are no xenos in HH' is basically an idiot.

Yes there are; you'll just have to be an adult and [url=http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/40k-safe-sane-and-consensual-or-the-arrogance-of-unacknowledged-playstyles.html]talk to your opponent about the game beforehand.[/url][/QUOTE]

I agree with this 100%

[DaveTycho]

You very much can invent a Chapter for 30k. Because Chapters were part of the larger Legion - and after the Heresy, it was those Legion Chapters that became, you guessed it....Chapters.

Flesh Tearers? Already there. They were a Chapter within the Blood Angels, and one that had a pretty heavy rep.

The predilictions of the modern Chapter reflect not only their parent Legion (assuming that's known) but the traditions of their parent Chapter within that Legion.

Want a unique force? Pick a Legion, then design your own heraldry to represent a particular Chapter (of your own devising) within said Legion.

Like your Drop Pods and your Meltas? Why not do an 'Imperial Fist' Chapter renowned for it's somewhat unhinged approach of landing behind the enemy fortifications, and just like Vyvyan in the pilot episode of The Young Ones, surprise the rest of the Legion when they turn up to find the building demolished from within?

Why do they do it? Perhaps it's a bit of the old Black Templar temperament showing through during the Great Crusade. Perhaps the Chapter takes in Legionaries from elsewhere within the Legion - those who have, or feel they have, failed in some way? Maybe it's a penitence thing - throwing themselves into the jaws of hell to recover their honour? Maybe they're just a bit loopy. Who knows? You do, if you choose it.

That's actually an interesting idea there. Of course of you going to create your own chapter that way, you would need some of the original legion markings/colours so to identify the parent legion, but otherwise it sounds like fun and something different to try.