Horus Heresy Chapters - a matter of choice?

[Mr Mystery]

How do?

A belated spin off to another thread up in General Discussion, where the topic of restricted choice came up in relation to games of Horus Heresy.

In short, one opinion was that choice was more limited than 40k, as players have a choice of but 18 Legionnes Astartes to choose from in terms of the flavour of the force, and less at present due to some not yet being covered by the (excellent, if pricey) Forgeworld Volumes.

But I for one would like to challenge this perception, and argue the case that there is just as much choice in Horus Heresy as there is 40k, albeit as long as you don't mind playing Marines for the most part.

You see, Legions do not equal Chapters as we know them in 40k. Indeed the Legionnes Astartes fought in a manner more familiar to Imperial Guard players. Massed infantry (basic Tactical Squads go up to 20 Marines, which can fire twice in a turn if you wish), plenty of Tanks (squadrons of 'em, and more choice), artillery trains, entirely airborne assaults etc.

I'll take it as read that you're aware of where a Legions predelictions come from, and that each Legion offered a particular specialisation, a certain theatre of war where they truly excelled. And with this, it's really easy to lose site of the fact a Legion could fight in any theatre of war. White Scars were equipped for siege warfare, albeit to a lesser extent than Iron Warrior or Imperial Fists. Space Wolves were equipped for covert missions, it's just the Ravenguard and Alpha Legion are more famed in that regard. So and so forth.

In short - a Legions specialisation was by no means a limitation. Every officer and every Primarch could take on any challenge without needing to request support from a brother legion perhaps more suited.

But how was this done?

Pretty simple really. Chapters.

Yes folks, Chapters. Not in fact an invention of The Codex Astartes laid down by Guilliman after the fact, but a long standing level of organisation within the Legion.

In most Legions, a Chapter was as it is today. Roughly 1,000 battle brothers with their requisite support from the armoury and command staff. Main difference was certain Chapters represented specialist formations - and this is where you would find say, White Scars siege specialists and that.

So with that in mind, your Legion is largely just a matter of selecting a colour scheme should you wish it. You may not necessarily make the most of any legion perks, but none of them are particularly game breaking.

And those colour schemes? Totes not as set as you might think. There are indeed Legion colours, but we've already seen via the Imperial Fists those were open to variety. And, there's even mention of Astartes using Camouflage when required, opening it up even wider.

But I'm waffling. What's your take on this? Should Legion forces be representative of their preferred methods? Do you already have a Chapter all your own? (show it off if so!)

[Haighus]

Agree totally, even more than the specific company heraldries shown for the Imperial Fists, there is also evidence given in the books (book 4 mainly) of entirely unique colour schemes for forces that have made their own paths after the sundering of the loyalist Legions in the Dropsite Massacre and also of loyalist forces of otherwise traitor Legions renouncing their Legion ties and taking their own heraldry, or reinstating a pre-Primarch form of their heraldry matching the Legion's Terran roots (the reappearance of Dusk Raider forces for example.)

It is worth noting however, that whilst the Legion colours are very open to customisation, the force composition can actually be more restrictive- some of the Legion tactics do prohibit certain unit choices- the Iron Hands cannot have more Bike units than Infantry units for example, and the Salamanders do not use Destroyers, but have their own unique unit filling a similar role instead.

[Alaric]

Absolutely they should. Any sort of chapter specific stuff is laid out in the rules so its pretty easy to make a more authentic force for "back then", Ill also mention that rights of war can really make a fluffy list with barely any trying on the players part. I use the Covenant of Fire RoW and it feels more salamandery than anything Ive ever made in 40k! Im a fluff specific guy so, no termies or land raiders in my 3rd company but still, the salamanders feel more authentic in HH...I guess the fact that I can plop Vulkan the Boss down and watch marines go squish and that helps a lot as well

[Katharon]

The reason why the Codex Astartes, as written by Guilliman, has a Chapter as its organizational foundation is because at that level it is capable of independent action across a wide variety of mission profiles without assistance from a parent Legion. As such, to decrease the number of legions, Guilliman chose the Chapter organization for the Second Founding.

The reason why we have 'Chapter Tactics,' which are pretty much just 'Legion Tactics' writ small, is because of those legion specializations you mentioned. For the most part they maintained those color schemes as dictated by their primarch and legion command; i.e. the average Imperial Fist was always going to paint his armor off-gold yellow with other iconography and trim being based on squad, specialization (assault, tactical, devastator), company, chapter, and then legion. Once you get into the areas of Veteran units you start to see shifts away from the common colors and heraldry of a legion -- to again use the ImpFists, their Crusader Squads took on a much more dark look and color scheme, befitting their inspiration in First Captain Sigismund. While it is not unknown for Astartes to utilize camo cloaks and darken their armor at critical points in time, the bread and butter of a legion never truly did so - their natural prowess as Shock Troops delineating away from what is a necessity for a common human soldier. This is a result not only of their armor (which is the epitome of armor in the 40K universe), but also mentality. They're created to be the best, armed to fight as the best, trained to fight as the best, and mentally conditioned to believe they are the best. When you have that combined, there's little in the way of subtlety left. However, genetic characteristics were still the driving force behind why and how certain legions developed the specialties that they had.

So, long story short, I say that yes, legion forces should be representative of their preferred method of war. If you put a White Scar in a siege trench and expect the same result as an Iron Warrior of Imperial Fist, you're likely to be disappointed; just as you will be disappointed in putting an Iron Warrior into the seat of a grav-bike that belonged to said White Scar. While both will be able to perform the duty, neither will do it as well as the other could in their specific specialty.

[Haighus]

As an extension of those Chapter tactics, we also have loads of Chapter tactics added by FW to show a bit of the variety of the Chapters specialisations in the 41st Millennium, which is to say there is a huge amount of variety. The thing I find really interesting about the FW Chapter tactics (and this applies to Black Templars too) is that a lot of them are for Chapters that did actually have Marines fighting as Legionarys in the Scouring or Horus Heresy, yet they still have their own unique flavour set apart from the main Chapter. Yes, it is definitely true that Legions have an overarching colour scheme and specialisation, but the point of the OP was to show that there is more variety than just that colour and specialisation, and therefore much more than just 18 different Legions to choose from, but subdivisions of those Legions, and independent formations of loyalists and traitors separate from Legions that have been broken apart by the events of the Heresy. Yes, a White Scar isn't going to be as effective in a trench, but he will still be able to perform the role better than an Auxilia Militia trooper would. Partly it is an issue of scale- the Legions rarely fought as one, or in combined arms operations, so a Legion force operating as it's own Expeditionary fleet would have to be able to cope with all tactical and strategic needs, even if it preferred a particular method of war- this is shown by the Raven Guard ably performing a full frontal siege assault whilst in a warzone under the command of Horus, and successfully taking the defences. Also happens to be when Corax decided he would never serve under Horus again, as he did not want to use those tactics and suffered heavy losses.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I love the Word Bearers Burning Hand Chapter, mainly because the Chapter Master lives up to his Chapter's name and he has promethium projecting gauntlets which are constantly on fire.

[Mr Mystery]

As an extension of those Chapter tactics, we also have loads of Chapter tactics added by FW to show a bit of the variety of the Chapters specialisations in the 41st Millennium, which is to say there is a huge amount of variety. The thing I find really interesting about the FW Chapter tactics (and this applies to Black Templars too) is that a lot of them are for Chapters that did actually have Marines fighting as Legionarys in the Scouring or Horus Heresy, yet they still have their own unique flavour set apart from the main Chapter. Yes, it is definitely true that Legions have an overarching colour scheme and specialisation, but the point of the OP was to show that there is more variety than just that colour and specialisation, and therefore much more than just 18 different Legions to choose from, but subdivisions of those Legions, and independent formations of loyalists and traitors separate from Legions that have been broken apart by the events of the Heresy. Yes, a White Scar isn't going to be as effective in a trench, but he will still be able to perform the role better than an Auxilia Militia trooper would. Partly it is an issue of scale- the Legions rarely fought as one, or in combined arms operations, so a Legion force operating as it's own Expeditionary fleet would have to be able to cope with all tactical and strategic needs, even if it preferred a particular method of war- this is shown by the Raven Guard ably performing a full frontal siege assault whilst in a warzone under the command of Horus, and successfully taking the defences. Also happens to be when Corax decided he would never serve under Horus again, as he did not want to use those tactics and suffered heavy losses.

Yup.

Iron Warriors are Legionnes Astartes.

Legionnes Astartes are designed and capable of superb performance in any given method of war. Iron Warriors Legionnes Astartes however excel in Siege, whether attacking or defending.

Their general disposition may see them make less use of fast elements, such as Jetbikes and Javelin Class Attack Speeders, but they've still got them - unlike the White Scars who have raised the use of such elements to an art form, it is likely Iron Warriors just make use of them in relatively basic 'what they were primarily designed for' purposes, such as advance scouts etc. But they will still be a force to be reckoned with to any similar force, excepting the White Scars.

[Katharon]

As an extension of those Chapter tactics, we also have loads of Chapter tactics added by FW to show a bit of the variety of the Chapters specialisations in the 41st Millennium, which is to say there is a huge amount of variety. The thing I find really interesting about the FW Chapter tactics (and this applies to Black Templars too) is that a lot of them are for Chapters that did actually have Marines fighting as Legionarys in the Scouring or Horus Heresy, yet they still have their own unique flavour set apart from the main Chapter.

That's ForgeWorld for you, always getting the tasty bits out.

Yes, it is definitely true that Legions have an overarching colour scheme and specialisation, but the point of the OP was to show that there is more variety than just that colour and specialisation, and therefore much more than just 18 different Legions to choose from, but subdivisions of those Legions, and independent formations of loyalists and traitors separate from Legions that have been broken apart by the events of the Heresy.

I again stress the fact that as far as Rules are concerned, we don't get much a taste of anything more special than the standard. Again, FW offers some nice alternatives and additions, but still are representative of the primogenitor chapter. There are a few chapters in the fluff that show quite a considerable amount of branching off from their primogenitor roots -- which is great as it shows how things have changed in the last 10,000 years. However, my point still stands.

Yes, a White Scar isn't going to be as effective in a trench, but he will still be able to perform the role better than an Auxilia Militia trooper would.

When in the heck did we start talking about IG? This is about Astartes, not unmodified humans.

Partly it is an issue of scale- the Legions rarely fought as one, or in combined arms operations, so a Legion force operating as it's own Expeditionary fleet would have to be able to cope with all tactical and strategic needs, even if it preferred a particular method of war...

The reason why the Codex Astartes, as written by Guilliman, has a Chapter as its organizational foundation is because at that level it is capable of independent action across a wide variety of mission profiles without assistance from a parent Legion.

...this is shown by the Raven Guard ably performing a full frontal siege assault whilst in a warzone under the command of Horus, and successfully taking the defences. Also happens to be when Corax decided he would never serve under Horus again, as he did not want to use those tactics and suffered heavy losses.

This example is a little flawed. Russ was the one who talked Corax into accepting Horus' command (implying that he could have avoided accepting it) after preventing Corax and Perturabo from coming to blows when Perturabo goaded Corax, implying cowardice in the face of the enemy. It wasn't so much a display of another legion performing a task that another would have done better (arguably the Iron Warriors would have been the better choice), but rather an objective that was sure to be costly no matter what legion performed the attack -- as was stated by Corax in his objections to Horus' plan; a plan, I will remind you, that often followed the Warmaster's usual penchant for dramatic, set-piece battles. Horus would often accept a far bloodier battle plan than necessary, because he knew he needed (or he thought he knew he needed) to make a point. So early in his career as Warmaster, it's possible that not only was the campaign against the Unsighted Kings about keeping his honor intact and once again subjugating a system that had previous been conquered by the Luna Wolves, but also a more subtle approach to enforcing his will and newly granted powers of Warmaster upon his erstwhile brothers.

- - - Updated - - -

Their general disposition may see them make less use of fast elements, such as Jetbikes and Javelin Class Attack Speeders, but they've still got them - unlike the White Scars who have raised the use of such elements to an art form, it is likely Iron Warriors just make use of them in relatively basic 'what they were primarily designed for' purposes, such as advance scouts etc. But they will still be a force to be reckoned with to any similar force, excepting the White Scars.

That actually begs a rather interesting question: what were the compositions of legions and their resources? We know for a fact that the Dark Angels, as the First Legion, have access to weaponry that no other legion had. We know that some of the legions, due to either being on extended campaign on the fringe of the Imperium or because Horus designed it that way through his treachery, that various legions were still being equipped with Mark II and Mark III armor -- while others more loyal or favored by the Warmaster had access to Mark IVs and even a few rare Mark VIs. (Mark Vs being haphazard and adopted by everyone) Some legions, such as the Iron Warriors, would have dedicated the majority of their armories towards siege-oriented vehicles or tanks (as was the case with the assault of Tallarn by the Iron Warriors).

Certain legions obviously had the basic rigmarole -- I believe the Death Guard, Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, Imperial Fists, and Salamanders would fill that category as far as transports, tanks, secondary vehicles, etc goes.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I think there is room for unique paintschemes when it comes to loyalists from traitor legions, small groups that renounce their legion could repaint their armour and remove heraldry. I'm fairly sure someone here even mentioned that FW did that with their HH books (?)

[Katharon]

I think there is room for unique paintschemes when it comes to loyalists from traitor legions, small groups that renounce their legion could repaint their armour and remove heraldry. I'm fairly sure someone here even mentioned that FW did that with their HH books (?)

Indeed! You have the Knights Errant (early Inqusition/Grey Knights) which was drawn from legions that turned with Horus and loyalist legions alike. There are the Shattered Legions, which has rules in the 3rd book if memory serves me correctly.

As for loyalist marines from within the traitor legions? You could probably work up a 30K themed army that uses similar rules to the Shattered Legions to perform the same function.