Horus Heresy Chapters - a matter of choice?

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

Given the potentially scant variety FW had to work with (I'm a Marine fan, but Astartes-on-Astartes action wears just as thin just as quickly as any other internecine experiences) they've really explored the possibilities.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Indeed! You have the Knights Errant (early Inqusition/Grey Knights) which was drawn from legions that turned with Horus and loyalist legions alike. There are the Shattered Legions, which has rules in the 3rd book if memory serves me correctly.

As for loyalist marines from within the traitor legions? You could probably work up a 30K themed army that uses similar rules to the Shattered Legions to perform the same function.

Ah yes, you could even choose a paintscheme to show they are united in purpose. The legions were so massive and the galaxy is such a big place, it's not too outside of reality to say that your 50 dudes happen to be loyalists too. A good common reason could be that they are terrans rather than ones from their primarchs homeworld, or they were operating for a long time without support from their parent legion and developed a unique brotherhood and when word of heresy reaches them they side with the emperor (perhaps even without knowing their own legion turned). The latter reason could even be used as an excuse to have traitors from loyalist legions (they felt abandoned by their legion/the emperor) so turn to horus. War is never black and white, it's always chaotic shades of grey (but not the 50 shades type...)

[Mr Mystery]

I'd love to run a limited resources campaign - kind of Necromunda style.

Each player has 3,000 points to spend (possibly more) on a force.

The equipment available is done via old school Rogue Trader tables - so you pay for the roll, rather than the toy. Some might get a bargain, others wind up paying over the odds.

Sorts of results? Purchase a Transport Roll. You might wind up with D3 Rhinos, a Land Raider of some description, or if you win Bully's Special Prize, a Spartan.

The twist? Maintaining your armoury.

Resources won or captured can be used - but you'll need a Techmarine to do so, and I'd keep them fairly hard to come by.

Troops roll for recovery if taken out of action during a game, and once they're dead, they stay d.e.d. - because neither side has any external support.

Would just have to be set in limited locales. Perhaps a listening station, maybe a backwater agri-world type affair.

[Haighus]

That's ForgeWorld for you, always getting the tasty bits out.

I again stress the fact that as far as Rules are concerned, we don't get much a taste of anything more special than the standard. Again, FW offers some nice alternatives and additions, but still are representative of the primogenitor chapter. There are a few chapters in the fluff that show quite a considerable amount of branching off from their primogenitor roots -- which is great as it shows how things have changed in the last 10,000 years. However, my point still stands.

Yeah, variations in Chapter specialties within the Legions is not currently reflected in available rules from FW, that is definitely true, although the rules for the Legions are broader than the rules for any specific Chapter to start with for the most part. Does not mean that those do not exist within the fluff to be exploited however, even if there is no advantage to building your force that way.

When in the heck did we start talking about IG? This is about Astartes, not unmodified humans.

Well, IA not IG, but I mentioned that in the sense that any Astartes, from any of the Legions, will be able to perform a military roll better than an unaugmented human soldier, even if it isn't their specialty.

This example is a little flawed. Russ was the one who talked Corax into accepting Horus' command (implying that he could have avoided accepting it) after preventing Corax and Perturabo from coming to blows when Perturabo goaded Corax, implying cowardice in the face of the enemy. It wasn't so much a display of another legion performing a task that another would have done better (arguably the Iron Warriors would have been the better choice), but rather an objective that was sure to be costly no matter what legion performed the attack -- as was stated by Corax in his objections to Horus' plan; a plan, I will remind you, that often followed the Warmaster's usual penchant for dramatic, set-piece battles. Horus would often accept a far bloodier battle plan than necessary, because he knew he needed (or he thought he knew he needed) to make a point. So early in his career as Warmaster, it's possible that not only was the campaign against the Unsighted Kings about keeping his honor intact and once again subjugating a system that had previous been conquered by the Luna Wolves, but also a more subtle approach to enforcing his will and newly granted powers of Warmaster upon his erstwhile brothers.

Yes, that is true, but the point still stands that Corax and the Raven Guard were required to perform a heavy frontal assault that was likely to be costly, and performed admirably at the task despite that sort of warfare being anathema to their ethos.

That actually begs a rather interesting question: what were the compositions of legions and their resources? We know for a fact that the Dark Angels, as the First Legion, have access to weaponry that no other legion had. We know that some of the legions, due to either being on extended campaign on the fringe of the Imperium or because Horus designed it that way through his treachery, that various legions were still being equipped with Mark II and Mark III armor -- while others more loyal or favored by the Warmaster had access to Mark IVs and even a few rare Mark VIs. (Mark Vs being haphazard and adopted by everyone) Some legions, such as the Iron Warriors, would have dedicated the majority of their armories towards siege-oriented vehicles or tanks (as was the case with the assault of Tallarn by the Iron Warriors).

Certain legions obviously had the basic rigmarole -- I believe the Death Guard, Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, Imperial Fists, and Salamanders would fill that category as far as transports, tanks, secondary vehicles, etc goes.

Well, this is covered pretty extensively in each Legion's background section in the FW books- the 'Legion Disposition' part describes how the Legions are organised, how their armoury is biased if at all, and how they prefer to deploy. However, it is also mentioned in the books that pretty much every Legion can field almost any type of force if required. Also, as far as armour is concerned, at the beginning of the Heresy, every Legion had some access to MkIV, and some of the Legions with a lot of access were not close to the Warmaster, like the Imperial Fists (who were close to the Emperor instead) and the Ultramarines (who produced their own I think). Only the Raven Guard are supposed to have MkVI, with the Imperial Fists as the next official deployment (due to their proximity to Terra and Mars), but the Alpha Legion have large numbers of the suit too through an unknown source.

I could go into much more detail on the Legions so far covered by FW, but that should probably be in it's own thread.

I think there is room for unique paintschemes when it comes to loyalists from traitor legions, small groups that renounce their legion could repaint their armour and remove heraldry. I'm fairly sure someone here even mentioned that FW did that with their HH books (?)

Interestingly, the only example FW has so far given of a unique heraldry as opposed to loyalists repainting their armour into a pre-Primarch form when leaving a traitor legion is probably from one of the Shattered Legions, as the Marine is a member of strike force Revenant known only as 'Redemption'. However this could mean they are form a traitor Legion and have got a unique heraldry to disguise this so they are more likely to be trusted by their allies.

Indeed! You have the Knights Errant (early Inqusition/Grey Knights) which was drawn from legions that turned with Horus and loyalist legions alike. There are the Shattered Legions, which has rules in the 3rd book if memory serves me correctly.

As for loyalist marines from within the traitor legions? You could probably work up a 30K themed army that uses similar rules to the Shattered Legions to perform the same function.

There are not actually any rules for the Shattered Legions yet, although some of their background has been covered in Book 4. The next HH book is supposed to contain actual rules for them.

Ah yes, you could even choose a paintscheme to show they are united in purpose. The legions were so massive and the galaxy is such a big place, it's not too outside of reality to say that your 50 dudes happen to be loyalists too. A good common reason could be that they are terrans rather than ones from their primarchs homeworld, or they were operating for a long time without support from their parent legion and developed a unique brotherhood and when word of heresy reaches them they side with the emperor (perhaps even without knowing their own legion turned). The latter reason could even be used as an excuse to have traitors from loyalist legions (they felt abandoned by their legion/the emperor) so turn to horus. War is never black and white, it's always chaotic shades of grey (but not the 50 shades type...)

Absolutely- there are several examples (other than Isstvan 3) already for loyalist groups from traitor Legions- there is an entire Warsmith-led Iron Warriors Grand battalion that has remained loyal due to being on operations far removed form the rest of the Legion at the time of Isstvan, and FW has stated in some of the fluff of Book 4 that forces of Dusk Raiders have been sighted fighting for the loyalists, despite the fact that the Dusk Raider heraldry is an obsolete iteration of the Death Guard.

Yeah, we already have evidence of multiple loyalist Legions with waves of Horus-supporting insurrections, usually from those Marines within their ranks that bought into the lodge system.. I think some of the Legions were exempt from this by their very nature as unified forces (Imperial Fists, Salamanders and Ultramarines mainly) but the galaxy is a big place and you can probably justify almost anything.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd love to run a limited resources campaign - kind of Necromunda style.

Each player has 3,000 points to spend (possibly more) on a force.

The equipment available is done via old school Rogue Trader tables - so you pay for the roll, rather than the toy. Some might get a bargain, others wind up paying over the odds.

Sorts of results? Purchase a Transport Roll. You might wind up with D3 Rhinos, a Land Raider of some description, or if you win Bully's Special Prize, a Spartan.

The twist? Maintaining your armoury.

Resources won or captured can be used - but you'll need a Techmarine to do so, and I'd keep them fairly hard to come by.

Troops roll for recovery if taken out of action during a game, and once they're dead, they stay d.e.d. - because neither side has any external support.

Would just have to be set in limited locales. Perhaps a listening station, maybe a backwater agri-world type affair.

Adding Mechanicus into that would be interesting, especially a more radical sect, as they would have more capacity to recover with limited resources- all your Tech Thralls died last battle? Bring some of them back with Revenant Alchemistry....

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Interestingly, the only example FW has so far given of a unique heraldry as opposed to loyalists repainting their armour into a pre-Primarch form when leaving a traitor legion is probably from one of the Shattered Legions, as the Marine is a member of strike force Revenant known only as 'Redemption'. However this could mean they are form a traitor Legion and have got a unique heraldry to disguise this so they are more likely to be trusted by their allies.

There are not actually any rules for the Shattered Legions yet, although some of their background has been covered in Book 4. The next HH book is supposed to contain actual rules for them.

Absolutely- there are several examples (other than Isstvan 3) already for loyalist groups from traitor Legions- there is an entire Warsmith-led Iron Warriors Grand battalion that has remained loyal due to being on operations far removed form the rest of the Legion at the time of Isstvan, and FW has stated in some of the fluff of Book 4 that forces of Dusk Raiders have been sighted fighting for the loyalists, despite the fact that the Dusk Raider heraldry is an obsolete iteration of the Death Guard.

Yeah, we already have evidence of multiple loyalist Legions with waves of Horus-supporting insurrections, usually from those Marines within their ranks that bought into the lodge system.. I think some of the Legions were exempt from this by their very nature as unified forces (Imperial Fists, Salamanders and Ultramarines mainly) but the galaxy is a big place and you can probably justify almost anything.

Strike force revenant sounds interesting and the name "Redemption" certainly hints at a loyalist from a traitor legion.

All of that is practically news to me though, awesome. I especially like the IW and dusk raiders tidbits. Very interesting. If there are shattered legions rules in the next book then maybe they will give more examples of these little splinter groups paintschemes/heraldry like they do with all the other stuff. Probably the most interesting part for me as it allows you to do HH armies that are far more individualised.

[Haighus]

Well, it could mean redemption in that way, but it could also be from the Iron Hands, as they really struggled after the Dropsite massacre- they looked up to Ferrus Manus as the epitome of strength, yet he must have been weak, because he fell on Isstvan, and nothing is weaker than death. So if Ferrus is weak, where does that leave the Iron Hands, especially that they were also too weak to help protect him? So Redemption may be seeking redemption from his weakness in his failure to protect his lord by punishing the traitors.

May be similar for any Salamanders, as they also believe Vulkan is dead at this point.

The loyalist Iron Warriors featured pretty heavily in Book 3- they were the opposing force alongside loyalist Mechanicum units against the Alpha Legion in the battle of Paramar.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Haven't seen this datapoint crop up yet, so throwing it out there; the Alpha Legion got a couple of paragraphs about how there are reports of their forces in navy, ultramarine, purple, turquoise, green etc with greatly varying heraldry. They're a bit of a special case, but the Alpha Legion at least offer a great variety of colour schemes to use in their Chapters.

Yeah, variations in Chapter specialties within the Legions is not currently reflected in available rules from FW, that is definitely true, although the rules for the Legions are broader than the rules for any specific Chapter to start with for the most part. Does not mean that those do not exist within the fluff to be exploited however, even if there is no advantage to building your force that way.

Generic Rites of War are a godsend in this regard, as they can provide a rules-based incentive to create, say, a White Scars Terminator strikeforce.

[Alaric]

Yeah, variations in Chapter specialties within the Legions is not currently reflected in available rules from FW, that is definitely true, although the rules for the Legions are broader than the rules for any specific Chapter to start with for the most part. Does not mean that those do not exist within the fluff to be exploited however, even if there is no advantage to building your force that way. Haighus.


With pride of the legion and veteran squads you can branch out a bit. Expensive in points though.