So no one's posted anything here for a week?

[Mr Mystery]

Shoulder Pads, Plasma Gun, Gravgun, Grav Pistol, Meltagun, Combi Weapon, Power Axe, Power fist all added, as well as ancillary bits and bobs for the keen modeller to personalise each squad?

Nope. No reason at all to tweak the whole thing....

Greenies having crisp detail? Serial? Srs serial? You may also notice they're cast in a pretty crappy plastic, and are one piece models with horrific mould line issues. Cheaply produced, some might say. Funny that. Though hey, I'm an easy going gamer - if someone wants to use them for their Imperial Guard, I say go for it.

Define most gamers? Because although GW have indisputably taken a hit in the past year or so - it was far less than 50.1%, which would support your claim.

High School Kids and Youngsters in general? The same way I did. Little bit here and there. I had a paper round paying me around £20 a week, and a part time job which barely paid me (sods always found a way out of it). Add in that childhood income has gone up considerably, and your assertion isn't looking all that strong.

Space Marine Assault squad - £25 for 5 plastic models and more bitz than you can shake a stick at....that's the same price as my old metal Assault Marines set me back in 1996....

Devastator Squad? Same price as 1996, but with added weapons options, meaning if I could get clever with magnets (I can't. But some can) you're getting far greater value for money. And the added bonus of them not falling over (looking at you, 3rd Ed hybrid Dev kit....)

[Psychosplodge]

Close Metal assault marines were 5 for £20, I remember cause I spent hours debating buying them when I could have another ten none jump pack marines for the same price. (I got the assault marines)

[Erik Setzer]

Sure it does, the book is called The Age of Sigmar.

As I said before, I really don't care about Oldhammer or 40K. I'm not a GW Fan... I am an AoS fan.

No, the Age of Sigmar book doesn't contradict the story in End Times (and if it did, you'd just be pointing out a serious flaw in AoS). While they inexplicably brought back a number of characters with no explanation other than "Hey guys, the old gang's back!" (basically, they needed familiar names, and to be able to keep selling some of the newer expensive releases), the only remnant of "the world that was" is the core. Everything else is GONE. Everyone is DEAD. That's not contradicted. Heck, these races we're getting are all-new races. The Chaos Gods obliterated the world so completely that these races who seem like the old races don't even know what the old races were. Malekith can't remember his own name (not surprising, as his memory was destroyed and everything he was perished when the rift took him).

You claim to be an "AoS fan." That means you're a Warhammer fan. AoS is meant to be a continuation of the Warhammer story. "Oldhammer," as you call it, is still the same story, just what happened leading to AoS. You can't pretend none of it happened. You can't ignore it because it's inconvenient. Your attempts to pretend part of the fluff doesn't exist just so you can ignore a huge issue with the AoS fluff are ridiculous. You're not a Warhammer fan, you're just a player who likes some models and doesn't care about the actual story behind the game.

And yeah, I got both major AoS books on my shelf at home, so I know the bloody story in those books, as well as the prior Warhammer story. So continuing to debate the story with me will just result in you looking sillier and sillier as you stick your fingers in your ears and act like a child saying, "La la la, Warhammer didn't exist before AoS, the Internet is always right, la la la, I can't hear you!"

So I have bought a lot of minis from a lot of company's and I'm happy with AoS minitures and their pricing.

Good for you. That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I also have my own opinion.

What I don't understand is why folks like yourself, who are declaring themselves moving over to Kings of War and Mantic (nice minis) bother with posting here? Shouldn't you be over at the Mantic forums?

Because I still have at least two AoS forces, and I have 40K armies, and I still play the games when I can, and I still hope for things to get better.

GAH. I have to remember to explain these things as if talking to petulant children, and it's frustrating, because what I'm about to say is so mind-numbingly simple to understand that you have to be practically a troll to not get this.

A lot of us enjoyed GW games over the years. I have a LOT of years and money invested in GW. You never cared for the old games? Congrats! Some of us did. A lot of us did. We grew up enjoying a multitude of games. 40K, Warhammer, Mordheim, Warmaster, Necromunda, Space Marine, GorkaMorka, Space Hulk, Space Crusade, Battlefleet Gothic, Man'O'War, Heroquest, Warhammer Quest, etc. We fell in love with these universes. We still love the models.

It is not really by choice that we're not playing. It's because GW's attitude has gotten even more anti-customer as the years went on, trying to act like its own history doesn't exist. They're pushing for premium priced models without caring about games to back them, looking down their noses at the idea of games even as they know those games are what sell their models. They're pricing the games into extinction. We look elsewhere because we can't in good conscience afford the insane pricing of GW games, especially as the quality of the games diminishes. And the quality of the games matters, because otherwise, why buy the toy soldier game pieces? If you think they're anything but toy soldier game pieces, you're either deluding yourself, or trying to convince an insurance company to give you something close to retail value to replace them.

If you lived close to me, I'd invite you into my apartment. All of my bookcases in my main room have figures on them, almost exclusively GW figures. My room-sized walk-in "closet" has shelves filled with models, most of them GW. Beside those shelves are various tackle boxes and cases full of models. More models are stacked in boxes on an upper shelf above my clothes. In my bedroom, I have a desk covered with models and paints and tools, cases stacked high with models to work on, another set of shelves covered in models, boxes around those shelves, figure cases lining an entire wall and under the bed. In the storage room on my porch, there's just moor plastic bins stuff with models, old rules and templates. Almost all of it is GW.

If GW dies, pretty much all of that just becomes stuff to put on a shelf and look pretty, which I hate, because game pieces should be used in games. And I'd prefer to keep playing games in the Warhammer and 40K universes. But I can't. I'm a gamer. GW's current management is trying to push out me and my friends, as we are pond scum compared to their preferred customers (who, frankly, don't really exist).

If I just go away and shut up, there's no one saying, "Hey, GW! We'd like you to fix things and bring back the good stuff you used to do!" There's nothing but people saying, "Hey, GW, go on doing what you're doing until your revenue gets so low you can't make any more cuts, and then just charge even more and make basic models collector items and stuff, we'll gladly pay $20 a model for basic infantry, and $300 for a larger plastic model, just keep upping the price to make up for lack of customers until you're dead." I'd prefer GW to come back from the brink, but even mentioning that things aren't good for it gets me bashed by someone like you, who thinks that I should keep my mouth shut.

You might be cool with the current prices, but even paying those silly prices, you still won't beat how much I've spent on GW. So call it a "vested interest."

(And it's not even old stuff. I have all the End Times hardcovers, I have the limited edition AoS, I have the Ghal Maraz book, I have about half of the 40K codices, I have a new Bloodthirster, Nagash, Thanquol, Verminlord, Stormfiends, Morghasts, a Mortarch, a Knight, a Morkanaut, and a bunch of other recent stuff that ain't that cheap, and bought a whole Ogre army earlier this year in anticipation of something that didn't happen. Painted about 8000 points of Undead for an End Times battle. Think I got ya beat on the hobby credentials with GW stuff and have damn well earned my right to voice my opinion.)

[Erik Setzer]

The simple answer to why the chaos didn't destroy the worlds of AoS is because no such device exists so they can't.

Actually, there are no "worlds" in AoS. The "realms" are kind of abstract areas floating in the void. (Pet theory: The realms are chunks of the old world gathered together by the Old Ones who then populated them with what they thought the old inhabitants of the old world were like, including attempting to resurrect some of the heroes from the knowledge that the surviving Lizardmen/Slann had. That explains the oddity of having people who are very much like they used to be but also different, like the Orcs not remembering they're Orcs, or the Dwarfs suddenly calling themselves something else and acting different, or Malekith somehow merging his name with his dragon's. The core of the old world is important for later bringing it all back together as some kind of strange super-weapon against Chaos, and that's why Sigmar's protecting it so much. Hey, it's a pet theory, I can wear my tin foil and make wild guesses.)

Also it pretty clearly states that not eveyone died it's right there in black and white.

Sigmar survived. That's it. Everyone else died. Heck, they broke the Weave that held time and space together. They won so hard they broke the universe. (I wish that was more than a throwaway line, but I don't see anything yet to suggest it. If GW wanted to go hardcore crazy, they could reference that to mash AoS and 40K together.) All that was left was the core. In AoS they talk about that glowing rock that Sigmar built a ring around being the core of "the world that was." When everything except the molten core of a world is gone, how does anyone survive?

All of the bickering over specifics of who survived ignores the main point here, though. In the End Times, Chaos won. They got "tired of their victory." Note that word: VICTORY. There was no bickering that stopped them from getting what they wanted. But now we're told that Sigmar knows they can't achieve what they want because they'll always break down into bickering, which will keep them from completing destruction long enough to let some people live the 600 years or so it takes him to make an army... No. He would know that's not right.

But then, we're also told on one world the water is practically poison, the people don't live past 30 (and are lucky to even reach adulthood), but somehow some of them are still around after hundreds of years. The story throws in some stuff that, if you actually apply thought to it, makes no sense.

AoS isn't really meant to make sense. It's meant to work with people who want big ideas and over the top models of Clonetroopers wearing golden armor. The story is full of inconsistencies and holes and doesn't work, and we haven't even tried to wedge the other races in yet. That can be fine for people, and okay, if you like that, cool. But trying to act like those issues aren't there? Nah. Just admit you're okay with a story that contradicts itself. (And as much as some people want to ignore Warhammer Fantasy Battles, dismissively calling it "Oldhammer," it's still the story of Warhammer, and Age of Sigmar is titled Warhammer: Age of Sigmar because its story is a continuation, meaning what came before *is* important.)

[Path Walker]

Erik hasn't read the fluff it seems, for either the End Times or Age of Sigmar. He's just going from what he's read on other forums. His arguments make no sense in regards to the stories already told and the way the Chaos Gods have been shown to act for decades, if anything, The End Times was a bit out of character with them working together so flawlessly.

Anyway, Sigmar didn't die, the Chaos Gods missed him somehow, he clung to the wreckage of the world and floated through the void. The Incarnates also seem to have survived but been changed and from them, echoes of the old world have sprung up in the mortal races.

At the very least that means you have at least 8 beings from the Old World that were not completely destroyed. Oh and the Lizardmen left the old world and were changed into the Seraphon somehow (which we're yet to see, but Good Daemons who are also Dinosaurs is a cool theme anyway), so yeah, as far as total destruction goes, they missed a bit.

Chaos only won because of Archaon uniting their forces, the gods rewarded him for it. This time, they're enjoying themselves, they're not uniting to destory everything because, with Sigmar in hiding and no knowledge of the Stormcast Eternals until they launched their assault, they think they've won. They can't break the Realms down like they did the World That Was so they're using the mortals as play things and enjoying their victory.

The Age of Chaos is the end of the Mortal Realms as far as the Gods are concerned, they're taking their time, they're in no rush, why not get all they can out of the Realms why they still can?

[grimmas]

Erik hasn't read the fluff it seems, for either the End Times or Age of Sigmar. He's just going from what he's read on other forums. His arguments make no sense in regards to the stories already told and the way the Chaos Gods have been shown to act for decades, if anything, The End Times was a bit out of character with them working together so flawlessly.

Anyway, Sigmar didn't die, the Chaos Gods missed him somehow, he clung to the wreckage of the world and floated through the void. The Incarnates also seem to have survived but been changed and from them, echoes of the old world have sprung up in the mortal races.

At the very least that means you have at least 8 beings from the Old World that were not completely destroyed. Oh and the Lizardmen left the old world and were changed into the Seraphon somehow (which we're yet to see, but Good Daemons who are also Dinosaurs is a cool theme anyway), so yeah, as far as total destruction goes, they missed a bit.

Chaos only won because of Archaon uniting their forces, the gods rewarded him for it. This time, they're enjoying themselves, they're not uniting to destory everything because, with Sigmar in hiding and no knowledge of the Stormcast Eternals until they launched their assault, they think they've won. They can't break the Realms down like they did the World That Was so they're using the mortals as play things and enjoying their victory.

The Age of Chaos is the end of the Mortal Realms as far as the Gods are concerned, they're taking their time, they're in no rush, why not get all they can out of the Realms why they still can?

All this and let not forget the group of Evles sent to the Haven. Yes Isha (or whoever she actually was) couldn't sense them, however they do clearly this exist in AoS (and Tyrion couldn't sense them when he arrived either standing by for the campaign book).

I will give Erik one thing though Worlds isn't the correct term but for some reason my spell check won't allow the other word, damn you apple

[Just Tony]

Shoulder Pads, Plasma Gun, Gravgun, Grav Pistol, Meltagun, Combi Weapon, Power Axe, Power fist all added, as well as ancillary bits and bobs for the keen modeller to personalise each squad?

Nope. No reason at all to tweak the whole thing....

Do you remember the Black Templar sprue? The Space Wolves sprue? A sprue that added ALL the special weapons and power weapons you'd need, plus a few extra to incorporate into other squads? THAT is all that needed redone, not the entirety of the Marine sprue. THAT is what was excessive, and prices show for it. Granted, 40K gets more unnecessary resculpting than WFB, but the price hikes are product-wide so it is relevant.

Greenies having crisp detail? Serial? Srs serial? You may also notice they're cast in a pretty crappy plastic, and are one piece models with horrific mould line issues. Cheaply produced, some might say. Funny that. Though hey, I'm an easy going gamer - if someone wants to use them for their Imperial Guard, I say go for it.

Did you even read my post?

And as far as kits needing redone or not needing redone. Mold degradation is listed as the main reason for resculpts of plastic kits. Are you aware that the little green army men have been in existence since before I was born? The same mold was run off by the millions for four decades. The detail lines are still as crisp as the ones I have left over from my childhood. The only reason they were replaced was to modernize the look with newer gear and weaponry. If a mold can be ran for that long with no problem, what is GW's excuse? Oh yeah, to add two shoulder pads to a Marine sprue. To consolidate the command sprue onto the main sprue. These costs are what drive up your prices unnecessarily, and what makes the bar of entry higher than most average gamers can afford. I work as a machinist and have a fair amount of disposable income, but the price is still prohibitive to me. How is a high school kid or young starting adult going to look at the same prices with less income? My beef with the prices has more to do with the effect on the hobby than my personal spending limits. And as we all know, if sales drop, GW raises the price to make up the difference rather than trying to make the price more accommodating to their target demographic.

The bolded underlined is where you are misreading. I said as crisp as the ones I had as a child. I never implied they were on a detail level with GW models, just that if mold degradation was legitimately a thing, you'd see loss of detail on molds that have been used for decades making millions of copies per year. Board game pieces have the exact same thing going on, you don't see evidence of mold degradation going on there. It's possible that GW simply doesn't know how to care for their molds, I can concede that.

Define most gamers? Because although GW have indisputably taken a hit in the past year or so - it was far less than 50.1%, which would support your claim.

Define as a metric that you won't nitpick to hell and back? Nah, not really. Evidence to support my claim? The existence of AOS in the first place. Sales dropping are what necessitated this severe revamping as they were considering killing it outright. Its existence certainly doesn't refute my claim.

High School Kids and Youngsters in general? The same way I did. Little bit here and there. I had a paper round paying me around £20 a week, and a part time job which barely paid me (sods always found a way out of it). Add in that childhood income has gone up considerably, and your assertion isn't looking all that strong.

Cost of living is also higher, as are prices of everything. When you were a kid, did you focus all your money on GW stuff? Even when I was obsessed with comics, I spent my money on more than just that. Now a kid gets to save up $130 US for Skarbrand. Different times, but childhood income hasn't risen enough to make THAT pill affordable. Now multiply across the hobby.

Space Marine Assault squad - £25 for 5 plastic models and more bitz than you can shake a stick at....that's the same price as my old metal Assault Marines set me back in 1996....

Devastator Squad? Same price as 1996, but with added weapons options, meaning if I could get clever with magnets (I can't. But some can) you're getting far greater value for money. And the added bonus of them not falling over (looking at you, 3rd Ed hybrid Dev kit....)

$20 US for a regiment of Spear Elves when they first came out for 6th. Now they are up to $35 US. 75% increase. Did all plastic products increase 75% since that period? Also, look at the price of the ten man regiments coming out after that. $41 for the Phoenix Guard regiment at 10 man? $50 for the Shadow Warriors?

[Mr Mystery]

And how much were those units when they were metal. Oh. Yeah. Either the same price, or slightly more expensive....

And please, if you're going to make claims about majorities, just provide evidence to support. That's all.

Nobody is saying the hobby is cheap. Nobody in their right mind wouldn't like to see cheaper prices (that's a pretty universal human desire, unless of course you're the sort of buttmunch who buys a drug company and then starts charging $750 a pill on account you have no soul). That doesn't mean the prices are too expensive. GW remain in profit by a healthy margin, and they seem satisfied with their current course. None of that matches up with the claims you're making.

[Ray Rivers]

Nobody is saying the hobby is cheap.

Actually... no hobby is cheap.

Take a look at bicycling for example.

[url]http://www.bicycling.com/gear-product-list/shoes[/url]

Check out the price of those shoes.

As I have said, I am cool with the prices for AoS minis. If you are not Tony, go somewhere else. Please.

[Psychosplodge]

Check out Ball jointed dolls...