So no one's posted anything here for a week?

[Just Tony]

So they're not allowed to sell stuff at a price that covers design and development, production, packaging and sales, let alone profit?

If $1.50 (roughly £1) a model is your benchmark, how do you justify buying any other model ever, apart from perhaps those green army men, the moulds for which seem to have been around forever?

$1.50?

That's ridiculous. Actually insanely stupid thing to say. That would just about cover the material costs of the model and packaging. So, how are they moulded? Designed? Written about? Sold to you? Painted?

$1.50?

GW aren't going broke, they have a model that works for them because they're making profit by selling models at the price they think is best. If you don't want to buy them, then don't, that's as simple as it gets.

So a plastic kit of 20 soldiers comes out to $30 US in the price range I stated. That is more expensive than when I started this hobby. Needless resculptings and repackagings along with some very necessary sculptings have driven the price to double that on average, with some of the older kits holding at a 50% increase. I sincerely doubt inflation is THAT high on those items, the hikes come because of lost revenue on games that failed being made up for in other games and tool and die costs for redoing plastic models that don't need redone.

And to answer the last post, I DON'T spend that much on my models. GW lost me as a steady customer a while back. $60 for a Vindicator or $35 for a 10 man regiment was absurd.

[Mr Mystery]

So if you're not a customer, they should listen to you because?

If you're not a fan of the game - no problem. There's plenty more out there.

But that doesn't mean everyone should share your opinion on the game nor the price.

Do you understand how inflation works? That it's, y'know, just a random figure, based on non-luxury items, and doesn't include things like rising rents and house prices - something that will affect your employees, requiring you to pay ever higher wages if you don't want a high staff turnover, which can be detrimental to efficiency, and thus push up your production costs?

Can you provide evidence that the lost revenue on 'games that failed' is a driving force of rising prices please?

Can you also please provide a point of delineation between the kits that don't need resculpting, and those you feel do need resculpting?

Do you understand how the design studio works, and how creative minds work?

[Ray Rivers]

Since wikipedia isn't written by contributors that aren't vetted as reliable sources, and can't be edited by anyone. Oh, wait...

The article is succinct and correct and reflects the lore presented in the Age of Sigmar Book.

No... the world was not totally destroyed.

So we should pay excessive prices for minis because there are people working there? Companies fail all the time, GW shouldn't be any different.

True enough, but when folks go out of their way to try to destroy a company, that is quite another thing... really nasty.

Personally, I think the money I have invested in AoS is well spent. I made my third order today and bought the Knight-Venator, Knight-Vexillor, an Exalted Deathbringer and the Dragonfate Dais.

Can't wait to see them in my hands.

[Erik Setzer]

So it appears you are incorrect, however, having not been a fan of the Oldhammer world, I really don't care.

Okay, wow... Well, now I know the level I'm dealing with here...

NO. I am NOT incorrect just because a Wiki uses a certain word. And if you don't care, stop trying to correct me on something you clearly don't know.

The fluff very clearly states that the rift opened across the world, and everything was obliterated. The timeline is left vague, but it's very clear that the entire world died. Everything gone.

The only thing that might have been left is the core of the world, but everyone on it was dead. Every living person, every shred of civilization, all of it. Chaos triumphed completely. They wiped it all out. They destroyed the world.

I don't count a tiny bit of the center of the planet as counting, because that doesn't get around the point that EVERYONE DIED.

You should go read the end of the End Times books. They're very clear on this. If you "don't care," then stop trying to correct someone who actually read the books and has the entire set sitting on a shelf at home.

What I do care about is entitled folks who seem to want to save me from GW and in doing so destroy a company who not only makes their minis in the UK but employs tons of people around the world. That in a time of global recession with so many folks already out of work. Just what we need...

I don't care to "save you from GW." Similarly, I don't care that GW "employs tons of people." They'll find new jobs if it goes under, and if they lose their jobs, it will be because of the management's horribly business practices. I'm not going to give my money to a company who looks down on its customers. You want me to feel for the employees? Okay, I do. Which is why I don't support the management. They're trimming the employees as much as possible just to be able to continue to claim profit, because that's easier than admitting their BS of trying to be a "premium model" company is garbage, and they really are a game company that makes toys, and they're even trying to sell in toy stores, so stop being obnoxious pricks and just sell things in a sensible manner! But no. They want to go uber-niche, which can't support that many employees, and at some point they'll have to lay off more people. They've had to do a salary freeze.

We, the customers, aren't to blame. That's the management. But no. You are so in love with the company that you'll blame the customers for the management's decisions, telling us how bad we are for not choosing to spend ridiculous amounts on toy soldiers, which is frankly ludicrous. That's borderline trolling.

[Erik Setzer]

Define excessive.

PP often charge more for fewer options and poses. Yet point it out and it's head in the sand time.

How much profit is a given company entitled to seek? Are they in anyway beholden to anyone but their share holders? If so, why?

If you're not a fan of their approach and direction - then fair enough, to each their own. But please do try to quantify.

I'm not a fan of PP's upping their pricing to join GW in that mess, either. They can get away with it with some people because you need fewer models, but it's still too much. Heck, I'll only pay what Wrath of Kings models cost (if I chose to play it) because they're larger models. Otherwise, I'm largely moving to Mantic and Warlord and recommending other people do the same.

Profit is fine, but there comes a point when the "premium pricing" model costs you more customers than it's worth, and GW's crossed that line. Their money is going down as the prices go up, and they're only staying in profit because they're cutting things and freezing salaries (which isn't going to keep employees happy). "Excessive" is when you're charging enough that people are looking at your products and saying, "No thanks, I'll go buy this other stuff that's cheaper."

Yeah, PP's in that same category right now, and that's going to start causing WM/H to collapse. They might be able to justify it some because they use more expensive materials, but frankly, I don't care, because they *could* make the change, and they aren't. But heck, Warlord sells some metal models, and they're not obnoxiously priced. Warlord also sells plastic models that are something like 32 guys for $40. If they can do that and profit, how is it that GW must price their models at so much more than that? People like to bring up other costs of doing business, but these other companies have similar costs, and GW's been doing everything possible to reduce the cost of production.

So yeah, I'm skipping out on GW and PP. I'm looking at Kings of War, Warpath, Bolt Action, Beyond the Gates of Antares, even Frostgrave. (I don't include stuff like X-Wing because it's an apples and oranges kind of comparison.)

If GW releases something at a reasonable price that I like, I'll get it. But I doubt that's happening any time soon.

Heck, my friend was interested in getting more Tau to build a Tau army (rather than just allies) with the new book, and just bought a couple of squads in the last couple weeks. Then he saw the prices for the new suits and was completely turned off on bothering to continue down that path.

Maybe some people are cool with the prices, whatever. Go ahead and pay that money. Lots of folks aren't, and the number's growing. Revenue is dwindling for GW while prices rise. I don't think that's coincidence.

- - - Updated - - -

The article is succinct and correct and reflects the lore presented in the Age of Sigmar Book.

No... the world was not totally destroyed.

The article is incorrect and does not reflect the lore presented in any books.

If you're trying to latch onto the core of a world still being there because Chaos felt like destroying EVERY LIVING THING and even the crust of the world and everything but the glowing center, then you're just desperate to try to claim you're right and missing the point.

Chaos killed everything. It was quite clear.

Here, let me quote it:

"And so the mortal world fell away into oblivion.
The gnawing rift at the heart of mankind’s domain devoured reality.
Slow it spreads at first, but then with the hunger of ravening wildfire.
Invigorated, great polar rifts slipped their ancient bounds and joined their younger siblings in its feast,
The peoples of the world beheld their doom, and screamed in despair.
No two watchers beheld the same vision. Some saw skies riven with fire, some looked upon an ice-cold maelstrom of stars, some saw colossal tentacles and fanged maws that drooled the molten stuff of chaos. Perhaps the Dark Gods raised their champions to daemonhood from the battles that raged amongst the flames. It matters little, for the truths of those hopeless wars are lost.
The Oak of Ages was swallowed last of all. Mournful dryad-song echoed under livid skies as Athel Loren perished. With its destruction, the Weave that bound time and space together thinned and stretched.
Twisted by unnatural energies, it dissolved entirely into nothingness.
That terrible act of uncreation might have taken the blink of an eye, or unfolded across millennia The Dark Gods were not fettered by the flow of time, and let it pass unmarked. Already tired of their victory, they turned away from the ruin they had wrought and began the Great Game anew in other worlds and other creation. In doing so, they paid no heed to the tiny speck of light tumbling in the infinite darkness – the glowing essence of what had once been a man.
Through the storm of nothingness he fell, adrift for aeons upon unseen tides.
Then came a glimmering orb, a fiery world-heart grown cold as the abyss.
Desperate, the figure seized upon the sphere with a grip that could shatter mountains.
He stared into the void, and from the darkness, the void stared back.
The figure clung tight, marshalling his faded strength.
He reached forth his hand, and a miracle took shape."

So, yeah, there's a core left. But everything else is gone. The world, its people, even "the Weave that held time and space together," all destroyed.

Chaos grew tired of their "victory." Note the word?

Yeah, Chaos won. They wiped it all out.

So for Chaos to now suddenly be incapable of the very thing they had just done in the last book GW had published in the setting? Nope, doesn't fly.

- - - Updated - - -

So if you're not a customer, they should listen to you because?

A lot of us are people who have bought a lot from GW, and would want to buy more, but can't, because their business practices are insane.

Why should GW listen to people who aren't actively buying? Because we're all potential customers, and why would you bother listening to people who are already buying ("customers") when they're buying your stuff already? The point of a business - since we're all giving lessons today - is to make money by selling as much as possible. GW's moving into a lot of new stores (at least they're trying to) in order to get new business. Those people aren't customers yet. So GW should ignore those people it's wanting to court? How does that make sense?

[Ray Rivers]

The article is incorrect and does not reflect the lore presented in any books.

Sure it does, the book is called The Age of Sigmar.

As I said before, I really don't care about Oldhammer or 40K. I'm not a GW Fan... I am an AoS fan.

In fact, this is the first time I have ever bought any fantasy miniatures. I am, in the main, a historical gamer (see avatar).

I have bought minis from Ral Partha, Historex, Foundry, Redoubt, Empress, Brigade Games, Blue Moon, Xyston Games, Hawk Wargames, Legio Heroica, Spartan Games, GZG, AB, Anvil, Studio McVey, Hinterland, Pulp Figures, Ironclad, Old Glory, Infinity, Raging Heroes, Copplestone, Reaper, em4, Flames of War, and of course my favorite: Perry... to mention a few.

So I have bought a lot of minis from a lot of company's and I'm happy with AoS minitures and their pricing.

What I don't understand is why folks like yourself, who are declaring themselves moving over to Kings of War and Mantic (nice minis) bother with posting here? Shouldn't you be over at the Mantic forums?

[Path Walker]

Sure it does, the book is called The Age of Sigmar.

As I said before, I really don't care about Oldhammer or 40K. I'm not a GW Fan... I am an AoS fan.

In fact, this is the first time I have ever bought any fantasy miniatures. I am, in the main, a historical gamer (see avatar).

I have bought minis from Ral Partha, Historex, Foundry, Redoubt, Empress, Brigade Games, Blue Moon, Xyston Games, Hawk Wargames, Legio Heroica, Spartan Games, GZG, AB, Anvil, Studio McVey, Hinterland, Pulp Figures, Ironclad, Old Glory, Infinity, Raging Heroes, Copplestone, Reaper, em4, Flames of War, and of course my favorite: Perry... to mention a few.

So I have bought a lot of minis from a lot of company's and I'm happy with AoS minitures and their pricing.

What I don't understand is why folks like yourself, who are declaring themselves moving over to Kings of War and Mantic (nice minis) bother with posting here? Shouldn't you be over at the Mantic forums?

Don't mind Erik, he's been ranting about everything Games Workshop do for at least 2 years now.

[grimmas]

The gods of chaos didn't blow up the old world Archaon did. By using a device buried inside the Ulricsburg. The simple answer to why the chaos didn't destroy the worlds of AoS is because no such device exists so they can't. Also who says they want to it was Archaon who wanted to destroy the old world not the chaos gods themselves they just thought it was a jolly gape. The chaos gods have never been about the total destruction of everything they just like playing their endless games. Maybe they are enjoying the state of the AoS world at the moment. They are timeless they might decide to find a way to destroy it later on. Maybe they won't because you know Chaos!!! Also it pretty clearly states that not eveyone died it's right there in black and white.

[Path Walker]

All except Sigmar, they missed him, he survived. So, technically, not total destruction.

[Just Tony]

So if you're not a customer, they should listen to you because?

If you're not a fan of the game - no problem. There's plenty more out there.

But that doesn't mean everyone should share your opinion on the game nor the price.

Do you understand how inflation works? That it's, y'know, just a random figure, based on non-luxury items, and doesn't include things like rising rents and house prices - something that will affect your employees, requiring you to pay ever higher wages if you don't want a high staff turnover, which can be detrimental to efficiency, and thus push up your production costs?

Can you provide evidence that the lost revenue on 'games that failed' is a driving force of rising prices please?

Can you also please provide a point of delineation between the kits that don't need resculpting, and those you feel do need resculpting?

Do you understand how the design studio works, and how creative minds work?

Yes, I do indeed understand such things. I also understand a level of conjecture, and the value of circumstantial evidence. Coincide price hikes starting in, oh, 1998 on with game systems that failed along the way. Also compare the rise in rates compared to other non-essential items using the same materials. Toys, gaming supplies from other companies.

And as far as kits needing redone or not needing redone. Mold degradation is listed as the main reason for resculpts of plastic kits. Are you aware that the little green army men have been in existence since before I was born? The same mold was run off by the millions for four decades. The detail lines are still as crisp as the ones I have left over from my childhood. The only reason they were replaced was to modernize the look with newer gear and weaponry. If a mold can be ran for that long with no problem, what is GW's excuse? Oh yeah, to add two shoulder pads to a Marine sprue. To consolidate the command sprue onto the main sprue. These costs are what drive up your prices unnecessarily, and what makes the bar of entry higher than most average gamers can afford. I work as a machinist and have a fair amount of disposable income, but the price is still prohibitive to me. How is a high school kid or young starting adult going to look at the same prices with less income? My beef with the prices has more to do with the effect on the hobby than my personal spending limits. And as we all know, if sales drop, GW raises the price to make up the difference rather than trying to make the price more accommodating to their target demographic.

The article is succinct and correct and reflects the lore presented in the Age of Sigmar Book.

No... the world was not totally destroyed.



True enough, but when folks go out of their way to try to destroy a company, that is quite another thing... really nasty.

Personally, I think the money I have invested in AoS is well spent. I made my third order today and bought the Knight-Venator, Knight-Vexillor, an Exalted Deathbringer and the Dragonfate Dais.

Can't wait to see them in my hands.

What about all the companies that have closed because GW dominated the market? Isn't it the same?