Forces of Distinction - Renegade and Chaos Marines.

[phreakachu]

traitor gaurd could easily be a suppliment for astra militarum. really, youd need rules for marking units, the addition of some if not all the chaos vehicle armory, some unique characters and perhaps a different list of orders, maybe not completely different but with some newer flavors.
csm itself shold be broken into 2 dexes, methinks, one for renegades, one for legions. bring the named characters in line with their heresy counterparts, in terms of power and wargear. and definately do away with the compulsary challenges.
and for certain, the named characters should not even have access to the boons and mutations table. its silly to think that kharn might end up a spawn, and none of them need the bonusses.

[Yayula]

How people can still cite 3.5 as broken when we have Craftworl Eldar and Gravspammers is beyond me...




It is a mess all in all... space marines get pre-heresy and post heresy equipment in huge piles even if their books state "it is extremely rare" while CSM doesn't even get standard drop pods which are used in almost every story.

CSM 3.5 is remembered by anyone who didn't play CSM as the Iron Warriors competitive list, which was among the strong ones since it could borrow stuff from the IG and also had no restriction on the oblies. There are 8 traitor legions so 7/8 of the chaos lists if not even more weren't as tough as people remember them which if my math don't fail me is the majority of the CSM players.

I think the FOC and special rules/restrictions from the 3.5 codex can't be dona again due to GW tendency to simplify rules and with 7th even the elimination of most "take a HQ get this unit as a troop now" the closest thing would be formations for each legion theme.

The Chapter/Legion tactics is something that just felt like an extra insult to how superior the loyalist avg marine is over the chaos one. For 1 mere extra point you get ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics and your champion isn't bound to declare challenge (which most of the time results on him dying and making the rest of the unit more susceptible to morale) I'd say that is one pretty nicely costed point and I would definitively pay it over VotLW.

Making the avg marines cost the same as loyalist for Legion Tactics and some kind of advantage on challenges would be nice. The ATSKNF is still the biggest thing of the three but I'm ok with paying extra for something to help them hold their ground over the loyalist (icons / VotLW)

I don't remember the cost on the loyalist bike/assault/devastators/terminators which are the equivalents from both codexes but they are probably holding that 1 point difference cost if any. A similar solution would be needed. All this is only regarding base stats/points there is also a whole world of difference between wargear which is ok for chaos to have lesser tech heavy stuff but should get some sort of daemon aid to compensate which it doesn't.

[Thornblood]

Ooookay. So this would be my plan- released one a month, or every two months between other releases. Each release gives more units that the other marine factions can use, but the coinciding releases are better with the new faction.

Do the other daemonkin books. The khorne one is really good and can ride us over. Then...

Chaos Renegades book. Red Corsairs. Blood Gorgons. Pirates and traitors and plain stuff with loads of options. Also it would cross over into 'undivided daemonkin'- princes and maybe a duel box that makes furies and some new unit that can be the new cheese. Lots of crossover with codex marines representing these guys being traitors from this era and not legions. Special character include Huron blackheart, Fabous Bile, possibly Shaan- the ravenguard traitor from metre dead that leads a combined force of random renegades (graham McNeil), also dark mechanicum foot troops (that explains the workforce creating held takes and forge fiends etc)

undivided legions- each with significant themes and minimal daemons.

Black Legion- more elite units. Super-chosen. (Or chosen with more options). Chosen boxed set. Black legion upgrade pack? Plastic Chaos Lord in power/chaos armour. Plastic havocs.
New Abaddon model as Lord of War.

Iron warriors- more mech- chaos land raider variants. Iron havoc units. Fortifications for all chaos legions released but iron warriors get special rules to help them. New Oblits kit. Iron warriors upgrade pack? Plastic Warpsmith Clampack. Honsou as Lord of War. Other special characters including dark mechanicum.

Alpha Legion- Army largely of cultists with expanded cult units for everyone (stealing from imperial guard range) with just a few agents buffing them and debugging enemy. Cultist upgrade pack that can be used on imperial guard stuff. Alpha upgrade pack? Plastic chaos sorcerer? 'Scions of Alpharius' Lord of War- 2-5 guys who have shared the blood of the true alpharius and believe they are him (and so do followers)- not overpowered but able to take an average hq in combat. Massive buffs to alpha legion/cultist units.

Night Lords- sneaky, rippy, tearing. No idea what to do with these guys for new releases- maybe a torturer character? Extra unit of chosen raptors (or chosen can take jump packs- conversion from new chosen). Sevatar as Lord of war?

Word Bearers- plastic dark apostle. Loads of daemons. Chosen possessed. Word bearers upgrade pack. Special Lord of War dark apostle? Maybe the clampack is a duel kit for the special character/regular one.

Cult Legions- releasees one by one and replacing the daemonkin books, also each chaos God getting an individual daemon book that work together like daemonkin (so World Eaters and Khorne Daemons United can summon more khorne daemons or buff existing troops- extra synergy between both books). Allying a cult warband is now the only way you can get cult troops. (But the previous books can take marks of the Gods)- just not cult troops.

Finally, a dedicated Cultist book which has new units, lots of traitor guard, some alien mercs, and designed to ally with a daemon book, or another chaos book.

Thats 18 books- probs best released over 36 months, interspersed with other things. Including other elder craftworlds, a Kroot book that synergies well as alien mercenaries, dark elder Kabals (expanding the Sslyth and allowing the chaos renegade book to have units of them as mercs, or bodyguards), new Ork factions (likely just snakebites, 'normal orks'- Goffs Blood axes and evil Suns, and tekky orks- evil Suns and defskulls.)

thats the dream!

[Mr Mystery]

Next question.....

Just how hard should Veterans of The Long War be?

This to me is a particularly interesting question, as I've had a feeling that Space Marines suffer from 'they don't make them like they used to'.

Not only was the Marinification process fully understood, but Geneseed degradation hadn't had a chance to kick in, and they'd (for the most part) have been trained to the exacting standards of their Primarch.

Then you add in the decades, centuries and even millennia of battlefield experience.

Whilst I'm on board with Yorkie regarding the significant supply issues Renegades and Traitors face, surely those who fought in the Heresy would be better able with their standard issue kit? I mean, there's having decades of experience firing guns, and then there's decades of experience firing your gun.

But how to best represent this on the board?

Well, my suggestions are perhaps a little restrained. Where a Space Marine has a '4' stat, Legionnaires should have a '5' stat. Two attacks a piece, three for their squad leader, and an extra wound for him as well.

And finally, one simply doesn't survive the manifest horrors of the Heresy and what came after lightly. Such persons would either be incredibly lucky, or stupidly, stupidly tough - so have a 6+ Invulnerable (possibly FnP?) save and all.

Ld? Again, I'm ok with Legionnaies having a sense of self preservation Marines don't. Their psycho-conditioning was broken long ago after all, and many would much rather the other chap die for his God, thank you very much. Just raise it to a flat 10 - so they're brave, but not stupid (and Loyalist Marines are exceptionally stupid. Remember, to be a hero, you need to survive....)

Equipment wise? Throw the armoury open lads. Something akin to Chosen here, leaving their armament and thus overall points mostly to the individual player.

Yep, the points would have to go up - that's a given. Dunno by how much, I'm not one to worry about such things, so not best placed.

But in short - anyone facing a Legionnaire army should be scared from the outset. These are genhanced, Chaos powered psychopaths from the height of Man's powers. They've annihilated untold species, and are capable of besting any foe in the galaxy. They absolutely should be pants-fillingly hard.

Heck, as an old 3.5 Player, I'd also say bring back Veteran abilities too

[nuclearfeet]

For traitor guard, you should really look into the FW Renegade and Heretics book. Lots of options for making a unique army, I love it.

Traitor marines...let's clear up a common misconception. The traitor legions have been stuck in the warp for 10k years. But to the vast majority of them it's only been a couple hundred years(source: BL books). So I see no problem using the current CSM book to represent traitor marines, as they didn't have access to the newer marine equipment. There's also the HH rules which are technically legal for 40k, but you might find yourself out-classed in smaller point games.

Current-day renegades? I would use the loyalist SM codex...there's just no way they would suddenly abandon their assault cannons, multi-meltas, land-speeders, and land raider variants just because they turned evil.