It is impossible to balance 40K

[Charon]

Agonizers are the best Close Combat Weapon that you can take in quantity, especially on Beastmasters.

That really made me laugh.... so you are spending 35 points on a T3 model without any save? Really? I mean for less points you get a Wraithblade or Strenght D Wraithuard.
An agonizer is 25 (!) points. That is so absurdly expensive on a T3 model without a proper save and attacks.

[Alaric]

Agonizers are the best Close Combat Weapon that you can take in quantity, especially on Beastmasters.

Also, Jink starts at 4+, up to 3+ with Nightshields.

Lastly, just about everything that can shoot well has Deep Strike. Use it.

This is what I mean aboot trying different things. Well done Andrew.

[Path Walker]

That really made me laugh.... so you are spending 35 points on a T3 model without any save? Really? I mean for less points you get a Wraithblade or Strenght D Wraithuard.
An agonizer is 25 (!) points. That is so absurdly expensive on a T3 model without a proper save and attacks.

Not everything is as simple as the Toughness and Saving throw of a model, its how you use it. He's making it work for him, what are you doing? Reading a stat line and deciding from there.

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I just said, i have always put 2 squads into even tac squads...ive been playing DE since 4th (started in 2004) and 6th and 7th suck compared to 4th and 5th for them.



1. be nice if our vets could take as many aw we want like marine vets huh?

2. and then your shooting vehicle does Nothing (ravager, venom)...I would prefer modifiers to hit to saves, make speed a real defense....oh it went flat out, is not a tank, and is so far away from you, hit it on 6s...

3. if we had the guidance systems pods had that might work well...

4. Put assaulting out of them back to 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition rules. MOve 12, pop out 2, assault...moving 6 is for the slower races...

1. Your verterans aren't marine verterans, imbrace what theyre good at instead of bemoaning what they are.
2. The Jink save represents the speed, it mechanically works the same way, you're hard to hit for half the time you avoid the shot. That's what a cover save from Jink is.
3. So only Marines in drop pods can effectively deep strike now? Thats just not true, again, other armies cop fine without them
4. So you'd gain a massive 2" on the charge? Even then, rolling for charge distance means you've got more distance than in 3rd-5th on average, especially with Fleet.

You're not looking at what your army is good at, you're not playing up to their strengths, that's on you, not the designers. People are trying to help you get more from the Dark Eldar and because they don't work in the same way as they did 4 years ago, you're convinced no one can tell you otherwise.

[Andrew Thomas]

That really made me laugh.... so you are spending 35 points on a T3 model without any save? Really? I mean for less points you get a Wraithblade or Strenght D Wraithuard.
An agonizer is 25 (!) points. That is so absurdly expensive on a T3 model without a proper save and attacks.

It can hurt things a vanilla power sword (@ strength 3) just can't touch. And I'm not talking about Wyches, or Kabalites even. I'm talking about your Beastmasters, Solarites, Aberrations (Good Lord, Aberrations), or Arena Champions. Things that actually can fight and live.

Besides, Allies are a cop-out. Sure, Wraith units may be more cost-effective, but this tangent is about Dark Eldar.

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I just said, i have always put 2 squads into even tac squads...ive been playing DE since 4th (started in 2004) and 6th and 7th suck compared to 4th and 5th for them.



1. be nice if our vets could take as many aw we want like marine vets huh?

2. and then your shooting vehicle does Nothing (ravager, venom)...I would prefer modifiers to hit to saves, make speed a real defense....oh it went flat out, is not a tank, and is so far away from you, hit it on 6s...

3. if we had the guidance systems pods had that might work well...

4. Put assaulting out of them back to 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition rules. MOve 12, pop out 2, assault...moving 6 is for the slower races...

We do have a guidance system, it's called a Webway Portal. Just second in a Haemonculi Coven, and you can have 6 extra no scatter Venoms or Raiders, filled as you like.

Waiting to assault from deep striking/Cruising assault vehicles is annoying, but who wants to face that from assault terminators out of a land raider?

[Djbz]

It can hurt things a vanilla power sword (@ strength 3) just can't touch. And I'm not talking about Wyches, or Kabalites even. I'm talking about your Beastmasters, Solarites, Aberrations (Good Lord, Aberrations), or Arena Champions. Things that actually can fight and live.

Ok Aberations, Solarites and Arena champions I can understand but beastmasters?
They have ONE attack and only the one melee weapon- literally every other model with access to an agoniser will be attacking with 2/3 times the number of attacks most of the time. And both Kabalite squad leaders and Wych squad leaders have a better chance of reaching close combat than beastmasters because the enemy will have to get past the 4/3+ jinking Raider before they can shoot them properly (And the wych squad leader has a better save in combat)

[Charon]

It can hurt things a vanilla power sword (@ strength 3) just can't touch. And I'm not talking about Wyches, or Kabalites even. I'm talking about your Beastmasters, Solarites, Aberrations (Good Lord, Aberrations), or Arena Champions. Things that actually can fight and live.

Besides, Allies are a cop-out. Sure, Wraith units may be more cost-effective, but this tangent is about Dark Eldar.

That is the point. They cannot "live". No transportation, no attacks, no save, no toughness, no grenades. They just die.

We do have a guidance system, it's called a Webway Portal. Just second in a Haemonculi Coven, and you can have 6 extra no scatter Venoms or Raiders, filled as you like.

Waiting to assault from deep striking/Cruising assault vehicles is annoying, but who wants to face that from assault terminators out of a land raider?

at this point im sure you are trolling.
First of all venoms have a transport capacity of 5. That means if there is anyone in there, the haemonculus does not have a seat.
And second... do your really pay 170 (!!!) points for ONE no scatter venom and call that good?

I would really like to see you in a vid podcast playing this. Im sure your opponent dies from laughing.

[Path Walker]

Charon, the more you post, the more confused I am getting about if you actually play the game or just look at the statistics of units and weapons and decide from there who wins?

The guy s talking from his experience I using units with those weapons and finding them effective and once more all you can talk about are stationed and wargear.

[Morgrim]

Beastmasters are one of the few decent units at the moment. Run them with khymerae up the flanks and they can be quite good at assaulting your opponent's back field, and the invul save on the khymerae can be used to screen the beastmaster to get them into combat. They also make semi-survivable distractions, because a lot of older players are still really spooked by agonisers.

[Charon]

Beastmasters are one of the few decent units at the moment. Run them with khymerae up the flanks and they can be quite good at assaulting your opponent's back field, and the invul save on the khymerae can be used to screen the beastmaster to get them into combat. They also make semi-survivable distractions, because a lot of older players are still really spooked by agonisers.

The problem with Khymarae is not that they are upright bad (altough they still got nerfed from 4++ to 5++) but that they share their fast attack slot with Venoms, Raiders, Razorwings, Reavers and Scourges.
The fun thing is they are still better than wyches (more A, better S/T, invual always available, 12" movement) but worse than Reavers and you will need your FA slots for multiples of them. They offer more bord control, are harder to remove and works as MSU.
If we had a Formation like the Gorepack from KDK I would probably recommend them, but as it is you are better off with Reavers, Scourges and Razorwings.

Furthermore the Back field assaults are no issue as any vehicle can deepstrike or just use aethersails. Grots (especially from Coven or as Grotesquerie Formation) are much harder to remove and pose a real threat to almost anything (that is not a Walker or a Sv2+ unit or a Deathstar). Khymerae have the issue that in such a scenario they can not assault the turn they come in, so you sit a turn only relying on your T4 and 5++. That was no issue when you could have big Beast packs with ablative Khymarae to deliver Razorwing Flocks but since both where toned down and the pack has a maximum size of just 12 that sadly has become a very weak option.