Terminator Sweeping Advances

[Sir Biscuit]

My interpretation is the same.
Thanks for the help!

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qae_TUTeGo"]You're the best![/URL]

[DarkLink]

And I certainly can't see some terminator-armored wolf guard saying that to their power-armored brethren.

And even if they did say it, I couldn't see them listening.

[david5th]

Main WH40K rulebook pg 48 -
" Unless specified in the rule ( as in the 'stubborn' special rule ), the unit's special rule is not conferred upon the character, and the characters special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

However

Main WH40K rulebook pg 49 -

" Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined ( from determining assault results onwards ).

Main WH40K rulebook pg 48 -
" While an IC is part of a unit, they must obey the coherecy rules. The combined unit moves and assualts at the speed of the slowest model while they saty together. "

If a IC was to Sweep advance and then consolidate, they might break the coherecy rules. I was always of the inclination a that once a IC was part of unit they were until it was either destroyed or chose to leave when possible.

[SombreBrotherhood]

Codex: Space Marines - P. 102 uner Terminator Armour, 3rd paragraph, last sentence - "Terminators cannot perform a sweeping advance"

Codex: Space Wolves - P. 61, under Terminator Armour, 2nd paragraph, last sentence - "Terminators cannot perform a sweeping advance"

Main Rulebook - P. 11, "All models in a unit move at the speed of the slowest unit"

Main Rulebook - P. 40, under disallowed sweeping advances, 2nd paragraph - "Som troops, as detailed in their entries, are not allowed to make a sweeping advance - in such cases the enemy always manage to disengage safely."

Taking all four of those together, I'd say that any unit containing a model in Terminator Armor slows down the rest of the group enough for their foes to get away.

But you know what's silly? Terminator-like armor wearing Obliterators, who are S&P, CAN sweeping advance. Go figure, huh?

[Nabterayl]

SomebreBrotherhood - I follow your line of thinking, but here's why I don't think what you've cited is conclusive:

Codex: Space Marines - P. 102 uner Terminator Armour, 3rd paragraph, last sentence - "Terminators cannot perform a sweeping advance"

Codex: Space Wolves - P. 61, under Terminator Armour, 2nd paragraph, last sentence - "Terminators cannot perform a sweeping advance"

True enough, and clear so far. Nothing is said yet about units with a mix of suits.

Main Rulebook - P. 11, "All models in a unit move at the speed of the slowest unit"

Also clear, but a sweeping advance is not movement. Consolidation is movement, but a sweeping advance happens before, and is not tied to, the consolidate move. In fact, it's entirely permissible for a victorious unit to sweep a losing one and not move at all.

I see what you're getting at, and I think it's entirely reasonable to conclude that what the rules are trying to say, in their fumbling kind of way, is that a terminator slows down the rest of his unit enough that the entire unit is disallowed a sweeping advance. I hope you'll agree with me, though, that this is one of those rules areas where there is no conclusive proof to be had.

[SombreBrotherhood]

@ Nabertayl - Yes. I certainly do acknowledge the lack of a direct interperetation (and am pleased at the high level of civility in this thread!) and that the rules we have don't lend themselves to direct, hard-and-fast conclusions.

What I have thought about, in a related thought experiment, is the strangeness not only of the situation presented, but how it gets even more strange when turned in other ways, so please bear with me when I say it seems, SEEMS, mind you, contravening that: 1) a single Terminator armored model doesn't prevent a sweeping advance by Power Armored friends AND 2) that a squad of Terminators is ALLOWED a sweeping advance by the addition of a single Power Armor model when before they were simply SOL.

When I'm struck in such a way by a situation, I default to a more restrictive interpretation of the rules, perhaps to control abuse or to keep my grey matter firmly inside my skull. As it is, I'm awestruck at the number of rules questions I didn't know I had until somebody gets in a random situation that makes them say 'hmm?'

[SeattleDV8]

While I'll agree that it isn't spelled out, there are many places in the rules where the action or lack of rules for one member of a unit would disallow the unit from an action or use of a rule.
For example , an IC without scout, fleet or infiltrate would stop the use of the rules for the unit.
One member of a unit moving would disallow a heavy weapon from being fired (IC's joining or leaving excepted)
One member firing a heavy or rapid fire weapon would stop the unit from assaulting.
I'm not sure if i'm remembering correctly but it seems that this was disallowed speficity in past editions.
Generally the entire unit must have (or follow ) a rule in order to use it.
The one member with Terminator armour stops the unit from Sweeping Advance.

[The Mystic]

Codex: Space Marines - P. 102 uner Terminator Armour, 3rd paragraph, last sentence - "Terminators cannot perform a sweeping advance"

Codex: Space Wolves - P. 61, under Terminator Armour, 2nd paragraph, last sentence - "Terminators cannot perform a sweeping advance"

You raise a very interesting point here.

When does an IC in terminator armour become defined as a "Terminator"?

If you compare these quotes, which are also the same as in the DA's codex, to what is listed in the entry for Terminator armour in C:CSM:

"....models in Terminator armour may not Sweeping Advance after assaults."

From a RAW standpoint we find our answer.

For C:SM, C:SW and C: DA, IC's wearing terminator armour are never defined as "Terminators" in anyway and therefore would be able to Sweeping Advance.

Unfortunatly this would also count for any model that can take Terminator armour as wargear within these 3 codeci.

Wolfguard in Terminator armour just got abit nastier.

[lobster-overlord]

Here's something to consider, that goes back to mixed unit. Majority rule.

Like with Neos in Tac squads for BT, or Wolf Guard in SW units. They used to use majority saves (i know that new allocation ignores this)

but as a happy medium, when house ruling it, perhaps thinking in terms of units if they are majority terminator, they don't, and when the Termies are in minority, the unit can.

I'm personally of the interpretation that a unit with even one cannot SA though.

John M>

[SombreBrotherhood]

@ The Mystic: That was lazy typing on my part. Where those rules read "Terminator" pls insert "models in Terminator Armor"

@ lobster: I'd be fine with the majority rule situation if/when it came up in a game. I just dislike that we (the players on site) have to come up with something like that agreement in the first place, and that there exist these random holes in the ruleset. For the record, I'd come down on your side, too. The presence of any model in Terminator armor should preclude a sweeping advance - there are downsides to that nice 2+.