BT trial list

[gcsmith]

At the momenet im exploring the ideas of other armies wanting to keep the nids im started to Christmas or next year, and toying about going back to Black templars, so what do you think about this 1500 list.


Emperors champion with Accept any challange no matter the odds, (140) pretty standard

Castellen with powerfist combi flamer and bionics and frag grenades (106)
Command squad for castellen with 2 meltas term honours for champion power fist combi flamer and infiltrate and frags (158)

9 initiates with powerfist flamer with rhino and frags (164)
10 initiates with powerfist and flamer and rhino (171)

5 sword brethren with powerfist, melta gun and frags and infiltrate (125)
5 sword brethren with powerfist, melta gun and frags and infiltrate (125)

vindicator with Poms (155)
vindicator with Poms (155)

tornado with multi and HF (75)
tornado with multi and HF (75)

aparantly I still have 51 points as its 1449 anyway I Dont Know what to add. Still this list looks like the most solid one ive made. Any advice and how it will run pls??? also what should I give my rhino squads, Bp&Cs or Bolter??? any advice is good advice in my opinion Please rip it apart.

[Beta_Ray_Bill]

You MAY want to check your math...
9 initiates with only the PF and flamer are 165 pts...

I'm writing my own list as I write this comment, and my 9 man crusader squad with just a flamer and rhino comes out to 200 pts. I haven't really proofread any other of your pts values though...

A suggestion I just recieved was to have two 9 man crusader squads, and have one of each of your HQs ride with them. Maybe when I finish trimming off my list you can tear mine apart!

[eagleboy7259]

When I first got into Black Templars I received some awesome advice from Nikephoros which has carried me through to today. Basically if you are going to play Black Templars, you have to consider what our book has to offer that makes it worth playing over vanilla chapters. The more a player uses these six things the better his list typically does in a tournament setting. In no particular order they are:

1) Accept any challenge, no matter the odds
2) Assault terminators with lightning claws and furious charge
3) Neophytes to soak up wounds
4) 5 man terminators with 2x assault cannons and tank hunters
5) Marshal granting Ld 10 to the whole army
6) The old drop pod rules

now onto your list specifically - Crusaders Squads should ideally be equipped with Power Fist and Meltagun, with 5th ed rules, its just too risky to rely on only 1 power fist attack. Melta keeps the walkers away and if you can't get into a favorable assault situation you can shoot out the top hatch and play the mech game.

You cannot rely only on two Vindicators and two land speeders to effectively provide anti-tank. The nature of blast weapons, especially if you are relying on BS 2 of POTMS will usually let you down. The Land Speeders are solid, usually, but nothing else in your army can effectively deal with armor and a good enemy can knock them out of the sky the minute they show their faces.

Out flanking or infiltrating templars is usually a no go. The sad fact of life nowadays is that Black Templars are considerably lower on the close combat food chain than they where when the book was released. Combine that with the lower numbers and the low fire output compared to their cost, and you are basically wasting a whole big chunck of your army. If you want to play the outflanking melta game, go White Scars with Khan.

[gcsmith]

KK i have an updated list rethought about your guidance

Emperors champion with Accept any challange no matter the odds (140)

5 assult termies with furious charge in drop pod (245)
5 assult termies with furious charge in drop pod (245)

5 initiates and 4 neophytes rhino and melta and power fist and frags (204) emperors champion rides with these.

5 initiates with 5 neophytes in a rhino and melta and power fist (205)

Preditor destructor with lascannon sponsons (125)
Preditor destructor with lascannon sponsons (125)

Landspeeder with multimelta and heavy flamer (75)
Landspeeder with multi melta and heavy flamer (75)

Overall with CORRECT maths * my prob last time* is 1439 sp 61 points to mess with, Overall I feel this is better against troops and tanks than before and provides a somewhat hopefully competative BT list. What do you think I should do to improve more, and do you think its competative> Thanks again for any advice.

[Nikephoros]

Unfortunately, assault terminators are only great at 2000 points or above. In the list you have now you're better off dropping the assault terminators, going to a full 10 initiates in your troops choices, adding a third troops choice, and putting a tank hunting venerable dreadnaught with Multi-melta, powerfist, and heavy flamer in a drop pod.

The thing to remember with AAC is that its a flat cost. The fewer bodies you have in your army that use it, the more expensive it is per model. The opposite is true, too.

Here is the list I would play based roughly on what you have...

Champ AAC - 140
2x 10 initiates w/ Melta, PF, Rhino Extra Armor, Smoke - 486
1x 9 initiates w/ Melta, PF, Rhino Extra Armor, Smoke - 227
2x Predator Annihilator w/ LC sponsons - 290
2x Landspeed w/ MM and HF -150
1x Venerable Dread w/ MM, Heavy Flamer, Tank Hunter, Drop Pod, Deathwind Launchers - 205

1498pts

[gcsmith]

Hmm wats so weak about Termies at 1500 Ive seen them do wanders, and have done wanders for me in marines armies in the past?

[Nikephoros]

Hmm wats so weak about Termies at 1500 Ive seen them do wanders, and have done wanders for me in marines armies in the past?

Assault terminators without 3++ storm shields will not reach combat ever, unless they are in a Land Raider to deliver them. 5 or 6 terminators in a LRC is a hefty amount of points for 1500. Its not worth it really, since most times a single land raider will get popped first or second turn.

I say they get good at 2000, because at 2000 points you have enough for two land raider assault termie squads, which is enough for them to be successful. And you'll have enough points to afford support units.

If you want to do terminators at 1500, I would go for 5 deep striking shooty terminators with dual assault cannons and tank hunters. You could fit two squads of those in 1500 and they could do some serious damage.

Honestly, at 1500 the goal for BT is twofold:

1. Have enough initiate bodies to make AAC worthwhile, which is why I tend to think you need crusader squads at 1500.
2. Have enough support units to kill the things Initiates can't: vehicles, MC, dreads.

[eagleboy7259]

I agree, I would never run BT assault terminators without a LRC or Land Raider, its not worthwhile to run assault terminators without the means to stick them into assault the turn they show their faces. If you are basically dropping them straight into the enemy firing lines most opponents will have more than enough anti-troop fire to wipe them out.

Goatboy had an interesting thought in one of the video battle reports between him and Bushido when he won Goat vs Templars. Bushido had to pay an extra 60-70pts for a unit that had the same effectiveness as his (Land Raider Crusader + Assault Terminators & Heros) A lot of people are down on Land Raiders in the first place just because most people run around with sooo much dang melta. If you combine that with a unit that basically can't hurt you unless you're opponent is within sneezing distance I've been down on the eggs in a basket tactic lately too. Dakka Terminators lead by a Marshall are what I've been playing around with lately, twin assault cannons lay the hurt and a deepstriking Marshall has enough assault power to keep people from chewing through the squad before you can land the power fist attacks.

[gcsmith]

so what should I use instead of the Termies, considering I think the main bulk of my force is competative?

[Tynskel]

Unfortunately, assault terminators are only great at 2000 points or above.
1498pts

Uh... Terminators rock at 1500.

I have found that most lists do not know how to handle them. They just come up n' kill yew!