Just when did Horus lose?

[Mr Mystery]

Afternoon.

Bit of a poser here for those familiar with the expanding background of the Horus Heresy.

As per the title - just when did Horus lose?

Now the obvious answer 'when the Emperor mind-bulleted him to death' isn't what I'm looking for.

Instead, I'm wanting to explore the decisions made during the conflict as a whole - so really from the start of the Isstvan cleansing, right up to the final moments on his Battlebarge.

Quick comparison? World War 2. The war wasn't won when Berlin was taken - instead, that was just the final event of a long chain of disasters. Some feel it was when they opened up the Eastern Front, and provoked Russia. Others argue it was The Battle of Britain, in which the German war machine was dealt it's first serious defeat.

So that sort of thing. What was Horus' first blunder? Was it one of his allies who cost him the initiative required to strike before the rest of the Imperium could gird itself - or was it his own hubris?

Right. Off you go

[Path Walker]

Interesting question, depends how badly you would call it losing, obviously even the first moment of turning against the Emperor means he was doomed to fail, after all, the big E has been manipulating human history since day one, its massively unlikely he was blind to what would happen once he made Horus Warmaster. Horus was always going to rise against the Emperor and the Emperor would always beat Horus, I think the events in the novel Vengeful Spirit is important to this though SPOILER WARNING FOR VENGEFUL SPIRIT

Sort of, I mean, its still a great book and I'm keeping the spoiler vague in case you ignore this

In fact, the book is vague in the same way I am being too, its an unknown quantity

But really, if you've not read Vengeful Spirit and do want to, this is best left unspoiled so stop reading.


OK, I don't think the Emperor expected Horus to go in to the chamber beneath Molech, I think he considered his mind games and everything else he put in place enough to protect whatever was down there and Horus getting his hands on it levelled the playing field more then E-Unit would have wanted. Its also the event that damns Horus and all of humanity into the slow, downward spiral of death over the next 10,000 years. He was always going to lose and I think the Emperor wanted that, what civilisation hasn't needed a good civil war to show everyone exactly who is in charge and conveniently whittle away the Legionnes Astartes which were coming up to the end of their shelf life anyway?

[CoffeeGrunt]

I'd say that when he had to commit ground forces to Istvaan was the start of his plans unravelling. Also losing certain Primarchs that he had been certain would join him. Mainly Istvaan, the idea was that he'd wipe out those loyalists in one, fell swoop and continue to hold the initiative and have the loyalist forces on the back foot. Tarvitz getting the word out allowed the Eisenstein to flee and warn Dorn and the Emperor, allowed the survivors to delay the Warmaster's forces as much as possible, and meant they then had to do the Istvaan V battle to handle the reinforcements that came in.

[Path Walker]

The Emperor was already fortifying Terra, he recalled most of the VIIth with him. He knew there was going to be a betrayal at some point. I don't think an early warning out have been as valuable as that, given that it allowed what he did on Istvaan V, Angron being Angron was probably either a stroke of luck or an extremely well calculated move, without the Dropsite Massacre, which was only possible thanks to the early warnings of his betrayal, he'd have had a much harder time of the longer fight.

[Subexarch]

He lost the moment he began conspiring against the emperor of all mankind. Never stood a chance actually.

[Captain Bubonicus]

It was the moment Horus realized he wasn't Rogal Freaking Dorn.

DOOOOOOORN!!!

[Alaric]

I'd say that when he had to commit ground forces to Istvaan was the start of his plans unravelling. Also losing certain Primarchs that he had been certain would join him. Mainly Istvaan, the idea was that he'd wipe out those loyalists in one, fell swoop and continue to hold the initiative and have the loyalist forces on the back foot. Tarvitz getting the word out allowed the Eisenstein to flee and warn Dorn and the Emperor, allowed the survivors to delay the Warmaster's forces as much as possible, and meant they then had to do the Istvaan V battle to handle the reinforcements that came in.

This. Thanks for saving me the time to type it out Isstvan was just the first in a long series of small little foibles that all added up in the end.

I wish Skrall woulda killed Horus. Favorite character.

[Jmaximum]

This. Thanks for saving me the time to type it out Isstvan was just the first in a long series of small little foibles that all added up in the end.

I wish Skrall woulda killed Horus. Favorite character.

Who the FOIK is Skrall???

- - - Updated - - -

Ok, feel like I missed a lot here, as I don't get some of the references, and I am up to date on the books
.
What is the significance of Horus at Molech (What/when/where is Molech?)
I thought Horus started losing as soon as his super-saiyan arrogance was ignited in the fever dream on Davin, or when he started listening to Erebus (where the hell has he been since book 2?) BUT, the Emperor did not help the issue, by unexplainedly withdrawing from his sons to create the opening in the webway that Maguns promptly fooked up in his hubris.
Had Woody only gone to the police......

[Andrew Thomas]

Who the FOIK is Skrall???

- - - Updated - - -

Ok, feel like I missed a lot here, as I don't get some of the references, and I am up to date on the books
.
What is the significance of Horus at Molech (What/when/where is Molech?)
I thought Horus started losing as soon as his super-saiyan arrogance was ignited in the fever dream on Davin, or when he started listening to Erebus (where the hell has he been since book 2?) BUT, the Emperor did not help the issue, by unexplainedly withdrawing from his sons to create the opening in the webway that Maguns promptly fooked up in his hubris.
Had Woody only gone to the police......

Molech holds a doorway to the Warp, that the Emperor used to take the fight to the Ruinous Powers and in so doing, achieve his current level of divinity. Horus invaded that world basically to prove himself to his new masters, and to do about 10,000 years of power-leveling in the Warp. As for Erebus, he and Space Falwell and Space Graham were busy beating up Smurfs (Know No Fear, Mark of Calth), trying to kill the Emperor (Nemesis, Vulkan Lives), trying to keep the Angels out of the fight/turn Sanguinius (Fear to Tread) and turning Angron into the first officially recognized Daemon Prince (Betrayer, although arguments can be made both for Magnus, as the Scourging of Prospero happened around the same time as the battle of Isstvan IV, and Fulgrim, whose apotheosis occurred a few months after the Dropsite Massacre, in Angel Exterminatus).

[Andrew Thomas]

Afternoon.

Bit of a poser here for those familiar with the expanding background of the Horus Heresy.

As per the title - just when did Horus lose?

Now the obvious answer 'when the Emperor mind-bulleted him to death' isn't what I'm looking for.

Instead, I'm wanting to explore the decisions made during the conflict as a whole - so really from the start of the Isstvan cleansing, right up to the final moments on his Battlebarge.

Quick comparison? World War 2. The war wasn't won when Berlin was taken - instead, that was just the final event of a long chain of disasters. Some feel it was when they opened up the Eastern Front, and provoked Russia. Others argue it was The Battle of Britain, in which the German war machine was dealt it's first serious defeat.

So that sort of thing. What was Horus' first blunder? Was it one of his allies who cost him the initiative required to strike before the rest of the Imperium could gird itself - or was it his own hubris?

Right. Off you go

I'd argue that it was when Hitler fired most of his Senior staff and, more or less, put Goering in charge of everything, but that's a different discussion

Horus lost when he let Lorgar start turning his brothers, because, as more of them fall, it becomes harder to reign in the imperatives the Ruinous Powers place upon their followers, especially when they are at odds with Horus' plans. His little stint as The Shadow notwithstanding, he's still being led by the nose, and Erebus and Kor Phaeron are tugging on that ring, and I don't think anyone is going to realize that until H, E, and S are bleeding out on the deck of the Vengeful Spirit.