The Force Awakens - Spoilerific Discussion.

[Mr Mystery]

I think he riffs well with the modern day Bogeyman, The Terrorist.

He's clearly been lead astray by others wanting to exploit his naivety and his powers.

Consider the troubles in Ireland - they all boil down to various ****ty things done centuries ago, yet you have kids being raised in a toxic environment, where said ****ty things done hundreds of years ago are used as an excuse for modern day violence, an eternal circle of retribution after retribution. Take any kid out of that environment early enough, and they probably won't care all that much about it, almost certainly not to the point of acts of terrorism.

And on some level he knows that's the case. A central theme is the constant pull of the Light side on him.

Who knows when his veneration of Vader began? Given he has the helmet, last seen in the vincinity of Luke, it seems he's either a) pinched it from the academy, or b) he knew where to find it (Endor, perhaps).

If it was the Academy, could Luke have been using it to teach that contrary to previous Sith and Jedi teaching, falling to the Dark Side is not a one way street - redemption eternal.

Overall, whilst I find him somewhat pitiable, I'm intrigued to know more.

[Kirsten]

still don't like him, he sucks

[Mr Mystery]

Apparently, only if you ask him nicely, and promise to breath a certain way...

[Kirsten]

I think I just threw up a little

[Mr Mystery]

[Erik Setzer]

Well, Luke probably had serious father worship going on, especially after Anakin redeemed himself at the end (ha! as if that makes up for all the slaughter he committed). So he'd probably talk up Anakin, aka Darth Vader. And, of course, there's all these stories about how powerful Vader is. That sets up Ben's interest in Vader, especially as it means he's got an insane legacy to live up to. Vader, Luke... It's basically the last of the Sith and the last of the Jedi. And then along comes Snoke, recognizing that, and starts pushing Ben to learn more about the Dark Side, not just the Light, and to embrace the power the Dark Side can give him. Someone finally sees Ben's potential and tells him how he can be a legend himself? Well, heck yeah! Sign him up!

And then it just kind of goes downhill from there. He's supposed to be super-important but has to deal with guys like Hux who don't give him proper respect (while he doesn't really have any respect for Hux, either). He's trying to show everyone he can be just as badass as Vader.

I do think the lack of killing officers wasn't a bad thing with Kylo. With Vader, it's still a temper tantrum... but he killed people rather than destroyed equipment that could be easily replaced. Kylo restraining himself to just wreck equipment rather than killing people unnecessarily might not seem "badass" but makes him a better character overall. And it could be a sign of the Light Side still holding its ground inside him.

Also, having a face makes him *more* relatable than a guy who never takes his mask on, and has his voice modulated to be so different from his real voice that it's unrecognizable when he speaks without his helmet. Kylo Ren's voice is modified by the mask, but you can still tell it's the same guy when he takes the helmet off. It might have meant his voice wasn't as "awesome" as Vader's with the helmet on, but it was more "authentic."

Vader *was* a little too perfect as a villain. I think moving away from that is good.

[eldargal]

To be fair, the films had Vader only killing very incompetent people (though Needa might be up for debate a little), it was the EU stuff which had him executing junior officers and stuff whenever something went wrong, which was missing the point of his.

[Erik Setzer]

To be fair, the films had Vader only killing very incompetent people (though Needa might be up for debate a little), it was the EU stuff which had him executing junior officers and stuff whenever something went wrong, which was missing the point of his.

Yeah, but it still felt like a waste, and they weren't even necessarily "very incompetent," just made one mistake. In one case, the guy thought he could assault the base better with a certain style of attack, which in theory doesn't sound like a bad idea. If he was incompetent, much less "very" incompetent, he wouldn't have gotten to be an admiral with command of the Empire's only functional SSD at the time. The other guy, IIRC, was killed for losing the Falcon? Basically, Vader wanted the Rebels crushed and later wanted to get Luke, and when he didn't get exactly what he wanted, he killed people.

But after seeing the prequels, he's still a lot calmer on the murder scale. It's just that murder is part of his personality.

Ben/Kylo inherited that quick anger, but he just directs it at inanimate objects. The two times he did so involved the escape of the droid with the map they wanted (with help from a Stormtrooper who went rogue and broke out a prisoner), and when a prisoner with serious Force potential that Snoke wanted to train escaped (bonus, Hux had just gone in and told Snoke, "Well, we'd have the droid, but Kylo said we only needed the woman, because Kylo's an idiot and I'm clearly superior," which probably made it even more distressing when she was gone).

[Tyrendian]

I think for me Ren would have worked very well as the kind of villain he is if there had been someone else beside him that carried off the threatening part that Vader and Maul for example did so incredibly well (and cool). Like, if Hux had had a little less "screaming-wannabe-Adolf" about him... or if Supreme Leader Snoke hadn't had that ridiculous combination of a very very Disney-villain name (who the hell is afraid of a guy called Supreme Leader Snoke when there'd been so many "better"/"cooler" titles available...), a rather clumsy "I'm a Giant! Fear me!" first scene and that lovechild-of-Gollum-and-Voldemort look about him... Or if Phasma had actually happened at all in the movie as most of us hoped she would (and may yet in the movies to come apparently)... Then having Ren as the evil-but-somewhat-relatable, pitiable and most importantly well-developed character that he was would have worked. But as the film was, it just lacked any feeling of real threat for the good guys - there wasn't really any "how the heck are they going to get past him" guy after seeing Rey instinctively match Kylo in the Force within moments of learning she even had powers.

[YorkNecromancer]

To be fair, the films had Vader only killing very incompetent people (though Needa might be up for debate a little), it was the EU stuff which had him executing junior officers and stuff whenever something went wrong, which was missing the point of his.

Well, not just incompetent officers, yeah? He does kill a whole bunch of kids, right after he takes the name Vader.

Although to me that feels like the writers' last gasp to try and convince us 'Yeah, this guy? He really is a heel, honest! You should feel bad for cheering him!'

Plus, you know, Alderaan.



'Technically, Tarkin gave the order to murder Alderaan.'

Yeah, but Vader was clearly okay with it. And also, he kills any officer he doesn't like, so the fact that Tarkin can actually boss him around without his complaint shows his opinion of Tarkin.

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