Playing with non-gw models

[Duke]

No, what I was going at was that GW should open up the platform (Much like Lucas has). How many companies make Star Wars materials? How many people have written Star Wars books/ games/ etc.

What I am postualting is that GW might consider the cost benefit of allowing other companies to use their IP in order to foster more efficent distribution/ creation of minis. Currently they hold onto their mini production with an iron fist. I wonder from a business perspective and from aplayer perspective if it would be more reasonable to open up the IP.

The Video game industry (I.e. Sony) has realized a long time ago that it is more productive to allow other companies to make the games for the system than for them to do it themselves. In fact, the consoles are generally loss leaders. Allowing the other companies to use you IP can lower cost and increase revenue. It could also better serve the community of players.

Duke

PS- Just reminding you that Iam merely playing counter point for the sake of discussion.

[steeldragon]

I believe the platform is already open for 40K, with several videogames, by different companies, books, comics, FFG doing boardgames and paper RPGs... videogames ussually don't have all the sales platform GW has with hobby centres owned by themselves, so my guess is they have a better way to get bigger margins instead of volume (that videogames do get selling everywhere, but providing a distributor discount).

Andres

[Lerra]

I don't seen any ethical issues with GW having a "monopoly" on the 40k universe. They own the IP after all and they can do as they wish with it.

The only business practice that annoys me is in GW-sponsored tournaments where every single model has to be GW or the army is illegal. It's less of an issue now that the GTs are kaput, but many private tournaments keep to this practice even though they no longer get any kind of support from GW. It seems a bit anti-competitive to force players to use GW models. Sort of like having a basketball tournament sponsored by Nike where all the players must be wearing Nike shoes or they aren't allowed to compete.

[Duke]

...
The only business practice that annoys me is in GW-sponsored tournaments where every single model has to be GW or the army is illegal. It's less of an issue now that the GTs are kaput, but many private tournaments keep to this practice even though they no longer get any kind of support from GW. It seems a bit anti-competitive to force players to use GW models. Sort of like having a basketball tournament sponsored by Nike where all the players must be wearing Nike shoes or they aren't allowed to compete.

This is pretty much what I was presenting.

@steel: Mostly, I am talking about model production.

Duke

[MarshalAdamar]

I'm of two minds.

One is from the fluff. A Rhino is a Rhino is a Rhino. Its call "Standard template construct" or some such.

Which I take to mean its STANDARD so using a 6 wheeled Tamia APC to represent a rhino might look cool but it messes with my world vision… man.

Now for guard; to speak to the interesting "chimeras" that were posted. I don't have that problem AS LONG AS the models are the correct scale and take up the appropriate foot print.

So if the models that were shown are the same size (roughly) as a chimera I would allow them. I figure they're some local militia forces vehicles or some such. And that person did make the models WYSIWYG, the heavy flamer, the turret (multilaser) I assume, the search light and dozer blade. I mean they were painted, modified with GW parts. Heck they even had decals! So I think those would be ok (for me)

Green army men, no, not now, not ever...

I guess my position is if it looks good, matches the fluff and is well built and matches the scale I’m ok with it.

[lobster-overlord]

To the question of GW allowing or not allowing things to be used, for the view point of an open platform....

40k is an open platform. If you want to make models of your own, you can. If you want to build an army with Army Men, you can. If you want to build terrain and not paint it so you see the Kelloggs logo on it, you can. However, your not going to be allowed to play in anything official, no tournament, no GW events, and most of the people at the LGS will likely make fun of youto the point where you don't want to do anything again in the hobby, but technically, there is nothing stopping one from making their army out of non-GW stuff.

While ordering from GW mail order one day, I specifically asked the question "what bout non-GW models/bitz"? THe 51% rule was invoked, as well as not being able to tell what the original was.

I certainly wouldn't mind playing against a well crafted, well built, well modeled army made from non-GW models (like an IG army using iKore models...they look right, and can be well fit into the codex). I'd rather play against that than someone who doesn't WYSIWYG or even attempt to paint a GW model he has.

DOing things to avoid cost (green army men plastic tanks) is just cheap and not in the spirit of the Hobby. GW or not, a Tamyia tank is better than the Army Men tanks, which I too have seen used for predators.

We did allow it for a couple of games in our store because they were being used as proxies on a new list by a player, but he did end up buying a couple of predators once he saw that they worked well in his new list. I never saw that as a problem either, because the intent of the player was there. And I guess in the end, that's what it comes down to for me. Is the player into it for the hobby craft or just a cheap way to play a game?

John M.

[Lerra]

I don't have any problem with gamers who are trying to save a buck or two, as long as the finished product is polished and fits the scale/feel of the army. I don't think you need to sacrifice your dollars at the altar of GW to be a proper hobbyist - you just need to put care and effort into your army. Tossing a bucket of unpainted Green Army Men on the table is never cool, but I wouldn't have a problem with a Green Army Men tank that was heavily converted into an Ork looted vehicle or something like that.

I am currently scratch-building 9 drop pods because A) it's a fun challenge and B) I can't afford the $315. This is a many-months-long project with lots of plasticard, greenstuff, and foam board. I might not be able to afford all GW models, but if someone says I'm a bad hobbyist after months of work on these things, I'd like to see them scratch build a few models themselves. It's much easier to just buy the darn things!

[PhoenixFlame]

For my two cents I think the only things that matter are:

1) Can you tell what unit is being represented when you look at it?
2) Is it of the proper size for LoS and Basing measurements?

Between the above two that should take out most of the rules and the "braking the fourth wall" issues. Beyond that I don't care and while I lean towards having more figs clearly GW I think that trying to enforce a requirement is a slippery slope and really a non-functional stance while GW still doesn't even make (much less still support) figs for all of the choices in various army lists. As a specific example, I'll buy the daemon prince of Khorn from FW to play with my pure Khorn army but I don't even have the option to buy a Slaanesh themed "demon price" (unless you count the larger named FW keeper of secrets as an 'option' for that, but the sizes just don't work IMO tho I love the fig), also the seekers of Slaanesh aren't currently supported (and with them the chariot) etc. etc.

I totally agree that playing with foam blocks and wood chips, as well as things like green army men takes away from the enjoyment... but until GW supports all of the figs in every codex it's neither practical nor fair to start talking about imposing bans.

2c

Phoenix

Edit: Lerra covers another aspect/a lot of what I think as well (yes I posted before reading all 24 pages). So long as the size / image isn't confusing or miss leading I'd go so far as to so that scratch built should always be acceptable even if GW ever did get to the point of supporting all their army options with figs

[Pi666]

Hard thread this is...(Must stop talkin like Yoda)

I use Rackham minis for my Mordheim Norse Warband, and for my Dark Elves Warband I use some Warcrow and Freeboteer. The reason is coolness. (Note: I own a full Space Marine Company, so I'm not suspicious of being anti-gw or something). Is like using some Avatars of War for Fantasy, Infinty suits for your Tau, etc... but you have to know they're not allowed in most of then tournaments out there. Finally my opinion is, "why not?" with a limit.

[Brother Rumba]

I've always wanted to build a small force of infantry using quality non-GW mini's and give them a back-story as a mercenary unit. Being non-GW would just add a fun twist to the 'outsider' image mercenaries have.