Most powerful Forgeworld primarch?

[BobMorton]

Once again, I know nothing, but wouldn't Vulkan be taken apart by Perturobo and his quad auto canons before he could engage? Seems to be that perturobo would be the most dangerous on one on one battles if you start at table lengths away.

[AnEnemy]

Mmm.

Terminators are always scoring in 30k whether they take up an Elite or Troops slot. You can make them troops with a Praetor. Not really a selling point for Dorn.

He's T6 so plasma is wounding him on 3's regardless of his auric armor. The 3+ only helps against T8 and above. The fact that he's going at I1 means he's going at the same time as all the other thammers and pfists. Now if it was a 4+ it'd be a different story.

You can still fail LD 10. Even with vexillas. Again, this guy is a primarch and you're talking like you're trying to sell me a used Praetor off the lot.

Aetos Dios? Really? Is that supposed to justify why he's one of the weakest Primarchs? A Thunderhawk that no one will ever see in their lifetimes?

Come on guys. He's got a few good points, but that doesn't change that he's in the bottom three of the Primarchs powerwise.

[Learn2Eel]

I've seen people on Dakka Dakka work this out before by using the maths done on 1d4chan so I'll just quote part of the main post I saw on the subject. Basically, Horus is the ultimate 1v1 duelist because of his Talon permanently reducing the Weapon Skill and Strength of whatever it wounds by -1 in each round of combat, eventually ensuring other Primarchs simply cannot hit or even hurt him. Lorgar Transfigured is the second best because he can easily cast some insane powers on himself to essentially make him the equal of Horus, with Fulgrim (armed with Fireblade) just sneaking up due to his duel proficiency. Perturabo and Roboute follow up to complete the top five in that order, the former due to his buffed version of Forgebreaker (Blind + Concussive) and the latter because he's simply amazing overall.

If we are talking about who I honestly think is the best Primarch overall for the points in terms of who you would want in a tournament list and who works best with their Legion, my answer is probably the Primarch that sits at the bottom of the following quoted list. Alpharius. Even if you don't think he is strong then you have to admit he is wicked fun! Giving Preferred Enemy (Everything) to an army that can entirely Infiltrate to pretty much auto-win on deployment and alpha (haha) strike the opponent so brutally while just generally providing so many different buffs to the army is just insane for his points. He can still hold his own against most enemies that aren't Primarchs or Gargantuan Creatures - i.e. other big things - given his Armorbane/Instant Death spear and he is just generally a really annoying enemy to kill because of how he can hide in units and play around with the opponents' reserves on top of just being a damned Primarch. Actually, the really weird thing about Alpharius is that because his spear has Instant Death and he has 5 attacks he is actually better in combat than Perturabo (the fourth best Primarch duelist compared to Alpharius who is the worst Primarch duelist) against anything that isn't a Toughness 5+ Eternal Warrior model, a vehicle or a Toughness 7+ model that is immune to Instant Death.

Originally posted by Caederes
Just to clarify, this is how all the Primarchs rank in terms of number of actual wins - and this assumes they have their best weapons (meaning Fulgrim has Fireblade, etc), the ones with Hit and Run can pull their shenanigans (namely Corax and Kurze), no charge bonuses so they are on an even footing (except for the aforementioned Hit and Run dudes once they start taking full advantage of that) and that the Primarchs are strictly 1v1 with no assisting models, while someone like Angron doesn't get his potential bonus attacks factored in - this is using the (mostly accurate?) numbers done on 1d4chan with corrections done where necessary (Strikedown doesn't affect Initiative anymore, etc);

Horus - 12 wins
Lorgar Empowered - 11 wins
Fulgrim - 10 wins
Perturabo - 9 wins
Roboute - 8 wins
Vulkan - 7 wins
Ferrus Manus - 6 wins
Angron - 5 wins (surprising, no?)
Konrad Kurze - 4 wins
Mortarion - 3 wins
Corax - 2 wins
Rogal Dorn - 1 win
Alpharius - 0 wins

Of course, it's a very different story if Angron gets bonus attacks first, but for these strict 1v1 duels he's actually not as crash hot as some believe. In fact, if Angron has maxed out bonus attacks, he gets 11 wins (only losing to Horus)! Also of note, regular Lorgar (i.e. not empowered) loses against everyone, including Alpharius.

[Psychosplodge]

It's clearly Russ isn't it? He's the one the big E sends to give the others a slap if they get too uppity...

[YorkNecromancer]

Terminators are always scoring in 30k whether they take up an Elite or Troops slot.

Oh, I must've missed that. Where's the rule that says so?

Even with vexillas. Again, this guy is a primarch and you're talking like you're trying to sell me a used Praetor off the lot.

Not really; just arguing that Dorn's strengths aren't SMASHFACE. Like all the Primarchs, he's anything but an auto-win button. My argument was that his strengths were in force multiplication, and that if you build an army with that in mind, he has potentially equal utility to any of his peers. Sure, he won't go toe-to-toe with them... But that wouldn't be in character for him. His narrative isn't one of GLORIOUS PERSONAL COMBAT. It's one of building bloody great fortifications and staying behind them, waiting for Horus to show up and grumbling stoically until he does.

Aetos Dios? Really? Is that supposed to justify why he's one of the weakest Primarchs? A Thunderhawk that no one will ever see in their lifetimes?

Well, I did say that no-one's going to have one before you did, so I'm not really sure you can use this argument against him. I mean, we all agree it's ridiculous.

Though, you know, when the plastic Thunderhawk eventually comes out, yeah, I'd argue that would even the odds a little in his favour.

So does Aetos Dios justify why he's one of the weakest Primarchs?

No. No, I think his points costs are the thing that does that.

Come on guys. He's got a few good points, but that doesn't change that he's in the bottom three of the Primarchs powerwise.

Which is why he's one of the cheapest Primarchs pointswise. He's not awful, not by any stretch. He's the Captain America to Angron's Hulk, or Ferrus Manus' Hulkbuster; he's got enough skills and toughness to fight on their level, but not remotely enough to beat either of them one-on-one. That said, he does have an entirely different skill set that enables him to do things they can't.

Plus, a much lower points cost.

As a rule, 400 points of anything generally beats 325 points of anything else.

It's clearly Russ isn't it? He's the one the big E sends to give the others a slap if they get too uppity...

I see Russ being like Lobo. He just shows up drunk, passes out, he's too tough for any of them to kill his passed-out body, and when he wakes up alone and covered in blood, he just assumes he won and goes around claiming he beat them all.

[Psychosplodge]

I see Russ being like Lobo. He just shows up drunk, passes out, he's too tough for any of them to kill his passed-out body, and when he wakes up alone and covered in blood, he just assumes he won and goes around claiming he beat them all.

*snort*

[Big_jon]

It's Horus, he's the best at buffing your army, and he's a CC monster. Angron hits the Hardest, Vulkan and Ferrus are the toughest, and Lorgar when he buffs himself is bordering on OP. It looks like Guilleman is up there too.

Perturabo beats a lot of the other Primarchs with the hammer too, his high WS helps a lot with that.

- - - Updated - - -

Dorn also conveys his Ld to all Imperial Fists on the battlefield; no small thing in a world without ATSKNF. Where other Legions get chased off the battlefield under fire, the Fists never waver beneath Dorn's gaze, and that's something you just can't overlook in 30K games.

He also makes Terminators into Troop choices, and in a game where only Troops can score, that's pretty huge.

Plus, except for D weapons, he can't ever be wounded on anything better than a 3+, so while he doesn't seem as tough as someone like Vulkan or Manus, he's actually not too far behind them. He's certainly almost as resilient against things like Melta and Plasma. He doesn't hand out the pain like the others, but that's because he - like his Legion - is all about defence.

I've not mentioned Aetos Dios either - which other Primarchs can rock up in their own personal Thunderhawk that has IWND and a Void Shield for cheaper than a regular Thunderhawk? Sure, no bugger's going to have one because SWEET MERCY HOW MUCH MONEY? but the option's still there.

Dorn isn't a beat stick, true. But if he was, he wouldn't be Dorn.

Dorn is nowhere near as tough as Vulkan or Ferrus.

[nuclearfeet]

You're all forgetting Perturabo and that possible turn 1 teleporting siege terminator alpha strike. Stubborn on your entire army isn't too shabby either.

Plus he can have his very own Shadowsword :-D

[Charon]

I think what I mean is if you were to put them against each other in an arena of death who would come up as the winner in one on one.

...turn 1 teleporting siege terminator alpha strike. Stubborn on your entire army isn't too shabby either.

I dont't think 1v1 means what you think it means...

[nuclearfeet]

I dont't think 1v1 means what you think it means...

Oh I read that, you snarky git.

Everyone else is discussing their other attributes as well, so I thought I would chime in. Besides, you can't really compare a primarch like Alpharius to Vulkan when determining who is more powerful.

They are clearly more powerful in different ways.