Fluffy Thousand Sons

[eldargal]

I'm putting this in general because I don't want army lists, just general ideas. What would you consider acceptable for a fluffy Thousand Sons force? Thanks to the Rubric there are no mutations in the legion, so to my mind that seems to rule out obliterators, posessed and a few other mutated units.

[JamesP]

First I should say that the last Chaos Codex I bought was the second third edition one so my thoughts may have little in common with the current rules.

IIRC, the Rubric transformed every Thousand Son who wasn't a sorcerer and strong enough to resist mutation into a bodiless automaton trapped inside their armour for all eternity.

So that a strict reading of that would give you 'mindless' Thousand Sons marines and Sorcerers leading them, plus supporting vehicles and summoned daemons of the Changer of Ways*

* - I can't remember how to spell Tz... thingy.

Here's a thought, the Rubric stopped the mutations in the Legion at the time it was cast but could Sorcerers or people inducted into the Legion after the Rubric was cast mutate later on? Did the Rubric prevent mutations for all time or just eradicate them there and then?

Not all Thousand Sons sorcerers would necessarily have powers that have an impact on the battlefield, so I think there's an argument for taking Chaos Marines who aren't Sorcerers but aren't the mindless sort of Thousand Son either - Chosen and Terminators, more elite in terms of sorcerous powers but not as elite as the 'true' sorcerers.

When the rules for Iron Warriors in third edition first came out in WD, I'm fairly sure it said that they could use Possessed but in an Iron Warriors army these were represented by Marines with daemonically-powered bionics/ cybernetics. So a 'mainstream' CSM unit was made to fit into a specific Chaos army through appropriate revision of its background and the models used to represent it.

So, depending on time/money/ inclination, you could give certain mainstream CSM units a Thousand Son makeover. Could you turn Havocs into a unit of sorcerers with long-ranged powers (i.e. their heavy weapons?), turn bikers into those little flying charriot things that the Thousand Sons had pre-Heresy?

You could include Possessed by saying that these are Thosand Sons sorcerers who have chosen to pursue power through pacts with minor daemons rather than accruing spell-casting power.

I appreciate that some of these suggestions are stretching the fluff. I agree that the strictest reading of the fluff is squads of mindless Thousand Sons, with a Sorcerer leading them, a Sorcerer Lord (or whatever they're called these days) in command, and appropriate vehicles and units. And all squads consisting of nine models, of course!

But I think that a well-thought out and appropriate background, plus suitable conversions - which is where I generally fall down... - do allow you to stretch the fluff a bit without others complaining.

Or to put it another way, slamming down several units of Havocs and saying "ignore the plasma cannons, they're wizards with wands" is pushing it, putting down a unit of Thousand Son sorcerers and explaining that they specialise in long-range spells of destruction, or have really big sorcerous guns, and are proxying for a Havoc Squad is ok.

Especially if you include a bunch of Thrall Wizards to proxy for the Havocs armed with only bolters, as that's a fluffy way to show that those models are only there to act as a meat shield for the models with heavy weapons.

[sonsoftaurus]

Here's a thought, the Rubric stopped the mutations in the Legion at the time it was cast but could Sorcerers or people inducted into the Legion after the Rubric was cast mutate later on? Did the Rubric prevent mutations for all time or just eradicate them there and then?

Not all Thousand Sons sorcerers would necessarily have powers that have an impact on the battlefield, so I think there's an argument for taking Chaos Marines who aren't Sorcerers but aren't the mindless sort of Thousand Son either - Chosen and Terminators, more elite in terms of sorcerous powers but not as elite as the 'true' sorcerers.

So, depending on time/money/ inclination, you could give certain mainstream CSM units a Thousand Son makeover. Could you turn Havocs into a unit of sorcerers with long-ranged powers (i.e. their heavy weapons?), turn bikers into those little flying charriot things that the Thousand Sons had pre-Heresy?

You could include Possessed by saying that these are Thosand Sons sorcerers who have chosen to pursue power through pacts with minor daemons rather than accruing spell-casting power.

But I think that a well-thought out and appropriate background, plus suitable conversions - which is where I generally fall down... - do allow you to stretch the fluff a bit without others complaining.

Or to put it another way, slamming down several units of Havocs and saying "ignore the plasma cannons, they're wizards with wands" is pushing it, putting down a unit of Thousand Son sorcerers and explaining that they specialise in long-range spells of destruction, or have really big sorcerous guns, and are proxying for a Havoc Squad is ok.

+1. Thinking of the legion recruiting post-Rubric and some counts-as is a good way to include more unit types.

Nothing wrong with just using TS units, Sorcerors and tanks, but if you want other types shouldn't be hard to do.

CSM/Chosen/Termies/Havocs as said by JamesP - either minor-league psykers or more recent un-mutated recruits. Can do counts-as "magic powers/weapons" for specials/heavies if desired too. Could do the same for bikers and raptors, either as relatively standard or as disc rider types.

I'm planning on having some "master sorcerors" as counts-as oblits in some other armies, would fit well with TS.

Possessed could either be more recent recruits that have succumbed, or do them as more powerful daemons, like armored horrors or something.

[Forhekset]

My advice would be to use the old 3.5 codex as to allow yourself more room to represent things via optional rules (which is why I love it so much and hate the new one), ie using Daemonic Flame gift for a Choson squad to represent the Pyrae cult, and improved saves or other upgrades to represent how the Corvidae protect themselves using farseeing.

Of course to free those squads of the rubric via the rules and allow them those gifts would mean seriously overpriced units of all Champions.

I know it's not as creative as just making counts-as stuff up yourself irregardless of rules, but I find 40k is the best when it mixes both large customisation with flexible rules and counts-as creativity, eg Codex Chaos Marines 3.5!

Presuming by the 41st millenium those cults and schools still exist to some degree, which I think they would.

Of course, you must read the Thousand Sons book, but I assume you have. Cause I looked into the very same thing after I read it :P

[RogueGarou]

I have seen the Thousand Sons in one of a couple of ways for a long time. Since the Rubric was cast and Magnus ascended, I felt like the Legion had changed in operational focus. Some of the fluff and Codicii have implied these changes, as well. I always felt like the Thousand Sons had sort of fragmented like the World Eaters. It seemed to me like the Sorcerors would be their own warlords now, leading their bands of personal thralls and retainers in pursuit of their own agendas.

The current Codex restricts some of your selections but disregarding that, I think a fluffy army could include a lot of variety. Pacts could be forged for the support of Obliterator cults. Especially since the Oblits do not come from any one Legion or source. Other units, such as Terminators and vehicle crews could be Rubric Marines just the same as foot soldiers. I don't think Raptors would fit into my view of Rubric Marines because assault troops have to have to more initiative, more passion, than the shadow of a Marine that was left by the Rubric. Possessed are also something I don't field for my Thousand Sons.

If I play a Tzeentch/Thousand Sons army, I try to come up with a reason for the units to be there. Bikes and Raptors get left out because I feel like the Rubric Marines do not have the reflexes or feelings needed to move swiftly. Armored vehicles, though, I can justify. The soulless Marine driving is not furiously turning, negotiating terrain, targeting and jockeying for position. I see them as just going through the motions. Their empty armor is doing what it does more as a muscle memory type of thing than anything else. Other than Bikes, Raptors, and Possessed, I could justify most units. I would only take Thousand Sons as troops and any Lesser Daemons I would elect to use mt Horrors and Flamers to represent.

Most often since the new Codex came out, I just field detachments of Thousand Sons in a larger army. I justify that as the Aspiring Sorceror is allying himself with the Lord of the army as payment. This fits in with how I envision the Legion at the present time. The Sorcerors of the the Legion may owe allegiance to Magnus and the Legion but their is no overall leadership at play with them now. The way I have imagined things is that the World Eaters and Thousand Sons have both splintered. The Sons have maintained some kind of overarching discipline and structure but the lower elements have a much greater autonomy than they had before. If a Sorceror is pursuing a particular grimoire or an artifact, they will pursue it with whatever they have at their disposal.

I see units with Icons as being followers of Tzeentch, just not members of the Thousand Sons Legion. Let's call them the Millennium Sons or something. If I am in a mood to play just Thousand Sons, I will break out just my Thousand Sons and some vehicles, maybe a Dreadnought or a Defiler. If I am playing Tzeentch, anything that can have an Icon of Tzeentch will have it and I will only field Thousand Sons troops squads. I also try to make squads with the favored number or a multiple of the favored number.

I do miss the previous Codex options to field armies of specific cults and the additional rules that made each one play differently. Someday in the future, maybe we will get that option again. I want my Rubric Terminators back just so I can say, those ARE Thousand Sons Marines. I have not looked at the old Codex in a couple of years so I do not remember if Havocs could be fielded in a Thousand Sons list but I can justify them being there. I think they should have some restriction on their functionality if a Legion list is made again. Maybe the Aspiring Sorceror leading the unit has to pass a Leadership test for them to change target or something.

Anyway, to me, a Thousand Sons list is ponderous and hits from afar like a mighty hammerblow. The only agility would come from the Sorcerors directing the force, like a puppeteer commanding the army. In turn, the puppeteers are the puppets of the Great Schemer, though. That is just how I look at things.

[BrotherAlpharius]

I think you want to keep to your core choices to keep the flavour of the army but I also think that "Counts As" offers a lot of scope. Model some terminator armoured sorcerors and use them as Obliterators for example. Their different weapons are actually different spells.

[Extinction Angel]

If you want to go with a more pre-heresy Thousand Sons force I would suggest not using the Chaos codex at all. I've recently switched to using the Space Wolf rules for my Thousand Sons/Extinction Angels and not only are they more like the legion should be, they are actually competitive. Slightly sacrilegious but hey, even better.

I don't know who at GW thought giving Space Wolves the ability to take 4 psyker HQs was a good idea, but they can and the Wolf Guard are exactly how I see the Thousand Sons leading their armies, a group of veteran sorcerers that split up to lead groups of non-gifted warriors. It works out much better than chosen and you can still take them in Terminator armor if you want.

The Iron Priest I am particularly fond of. A techno-mage that has built magical contraptions (cyber wolves) and uses thrall wizards (servitors) to aid him in his implementations on the battlefield.

The SW list is a lot more mobile, but the pre-heresy Thousand Sons were a lot more mobile and used lots of heavy firepower to decimate their foes. The close combat elements I tend to not include except for Thunderwolf cavalry. Right now I use Bloodcrushers to represent the models, but I am going to make some Disc riders to ultimately fill the roll (*prays in vain for plastic Discs*). That bit isn't very pre-heresy so if you are taking that approach, I'd leave them at home.

Really, you have a lot of options that are more dependent on what kind of Thousand Sons force you want to run.

[Fellend]

Personally I think possessed is fine. I'm looking to the possessed mentioned in the third ultramarines novel who is described more as a power armour with a malignant shadow than a wierdly mutated freak. I can totally see the Thousand sons letting their armors be possessed by more powerful daemons (even daemon princes) to get more power, stronger, faster, better.

This kind of possession could easily represent raptors as well. Think of them as teleporting jump troops, filled with daemonic rage, tempered with cold vengence from the Thousand sons.

[cajun 40k]

The forge world thousand sons dreadnought is really cool looking, and it fits the whole thousand suns, sand encased in Armour motif.

[url]http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Chaos/DREADNOUGHTS/THOUSAND-SONS-DREADNOUGHT.html[/url]