Dark Heresy: Ascension

[Melissia]

So, anyone here have it?

My group's currently switching to Ascension at the moment, Just curious what other people thought of it. I find it pretty interesting, a nice way to have characters higher than 13k xp.

[Freefall945]

I've looked through it. Was a little dissapointed, actually. They've made the advanced careers a little inflexible in some cases, and a little... insane in others.

For example, the Stormtrooper career seems like the no-brainer class for the guardsman or thug character in a Dark Heresy group. I considered it myself, except that while most careers get some kind of stunning Unnatural Stat (inquisitors get Unnatural Willpower X3, or 4, I think; Sages get intelligence similarly unnatural), the Guardsman does not. He gets implicit bonus to wearing Stormtrooper Carapace (which does not help you when the Storyteller throws you into a social situation, or has goons bust in the windows of your underhive lair, at which point you have THAT argument again - you know, the one about whether or not your character sleeps in their armor?) and also when weilding a hellgun or Hellpistol, so you'd better hope those were your chosen weapons.

Conversely, the Vindicare assassin gets a jaw-dropping Unnatural Agility, Unnatural Strength, Unnatural Toughness and Unnatural Speed, a handful of stunning class abilities and ultimately the power and ability to utterly outclass any other choice of combat class. Sure, they don't get the fistful of Peer:So and So talents the others get, but the degree by which they are superior in combat is.. shall we say, true to the lore.

Vindicare is the natural choice for any Acolyte pursuing an aggressive role in the party, and if there's one, he'll utterly outshine the rest of the group. That's a problem. A little more careful choice of classes and application of Unnatural stats would really have made a different in Ascension's production.

[Melissia]

Wait, you mean soldiers aren't as good in social situation as other classes?

LE GASP!

[Freefall945]

Well, look, there's more to it than that, isn't it? Maybe it's just the group I run with, but when RPGs come up, everyone likes to have two things:

1. A useful skillset to add to the group.
2. Something to contribute in combat.

And usually, that's okay. Even the brainiest adept with sit there at the back, plugging away contently with his Fatebringer and picking off mooks with reasonable panache.

The Vindicare particularly violates this tradition as, even though he brings a useful skillset (stealth and asskicking), he drastically alters how folks feel about their input in combat. The assassin can kick you in the face with his bare foot for something like d10+ 11 damage, and in ascension levels he's almost certainly got some kick of wicked sweet sword. He can dodge a number of times - and I don't have the book in front of me, and everytime I talk about this I'm convinced I'm wrong - equal to his agility bonus (which is unnatural) and on average a lasrifle will need to roll a 10 for damage to harm him if it hits.

For some groups, I suppose, this is okay; for many others, I worry.

[Melissia]

Some groups will always have munchkins.

And, IIRC, stormtroopers DO have more general skillsets. They aren't as specialized for combat as the vindicare is. The Vindicare is actually hideously bad at social interaction... just BEING a vindicare means you have to give up a substantial amount of fellowship, intelligence, and gain a not inconsequential amount of insanity. Becoming a stormtrooper only has the fellowship loss, but you gain MUCH more... ballistics skill, willpower, strength, toughness...

Stormtroopers that come from a background of the officer path of Guardsman are quite well-rounded, with a good amount of social skills and talents, and plenty of combat. But even other Guardsman types can get Command, Interrogation, and Intimidation early on in the Stormtrooper class. They also get more good reputation and peer talents, talents which Ascension is practically designed around... they can become peers with the Adepta Sororitas, Adeptus Arbites, Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Titanicus, Death Worlders, Feral Worlders, Imperial Navy, Inquisition, the Military (which covers the Munitorum and Guard), PDFs, any number of specific planets, and Voidborn. Quite a list there, and quite damn useful in a socially minded Ascension campaign. In fact, I think only Heirophants, Interrogators and Inquisitors can have more peer and good reputation talents.

The Vindicare has no social talents or skills except for Sleight of Hand, all other social talents and skills must be purchased as expensive elite advances. The Vindicare Assassin only gets one each of Peer and Good Reputation-- Peer (Inquisition) and Good Reputation (Inquisition). They exist SOLELY for killing people. Personally, I would say that Stormtroopers are much better for most groups.

[Freefall945]

I'm not saying that the Stormtrooper is useless, but since you bring it up...

Some players will take their character in the heartfelt direction they have regardless of the game's mechanical drawbacks, and Emperor bless those resilient souls. For the rest of us, there is a dilemma.

While it's possible to play a social-themed Guard character (my main DH character is just that... sort of), it is a poor acolyte troupe that relies on him in any real way for that. Even disregarding the fact that Feral World is an attractive starting point for Guardsmen and that entails a fellowship hit, the stat purchases for the Guardsman career are just awful. Compare the stat purchase scheme for, say, the Cleric, and you can see why the disparity here is so terrible. A Guardsman character who -does- go into the Officer career path (driven by a player with either a passion, or rocks in their head, in my opinion) does so relying on fellowship which he will need to sell his organs to afford raising, because it begins at 500 XP and skyrockets from there for the 5% blocks.

One encounters a similar issue if they intend their character to, for example, be reasonably intelligent, or to not keel over, vomiting and spasming in terror, whenever confronted by fearful foes.

The net effect of this is that a Guardsman character is discouraged from stat buys (beyond the early, cheap ones for WS, BS, S, etc) and will instead load up on cheap, broad skill and talent proficiencies, like Chem-Use, Demolitions, Navigation, and so on.

This is okay. The career isn't useless, it just punishes you for diverging too far from a jack-of-all-trades leg-breaker.

I think it's fair to say that's your Average Guardsman character. This is a generalization.

Going from there into an Ascension career, it would be sensible for Stormtrooper to be a martially based class with some military fraternity aspects, while the Vindicare is a murderous loner whose social abilities are lost for greater proficiency in killing.

The problem is the Vindicare's trade-off isn't commensurate. It's outrageous. When your character is staring down the barrel at the options:

a) Potent killing abilities, mediocre social abilities, or
b) Preposterous killing abilities, nigh-absent social abilities

...One can not blame many players for considering that the Scum-Turned-Interrogator or Cleric-Turned-Heirophant is going to cover the social field anyway, and they should instead turn their Guardsman into a character who can noogie Khorne Berserkers.

There are some generalizations and hyperbole above. Be aware.