Respect and Proxies

[Cactus]

Sometimes it goes too far. Anyone remember Joe Orteza's greenstuff Chaos army? Literally NOTHING in that army could have been discerned as anything close to what it was supposed to represent. THAT sort of scratchbuilding I am against. I also saw a Lego Land Speeder. Yeah.

I disagree with your comments about Joe Orteza's models. I thought those were stunning and they often included bits from GW models. Those were works of art and he obviously put a lot of time, money, and love into making those models.

However, cheap-skating around with toys, Coke bottles, etc so you don't have to paint I find disappointing. Those "conversions" or "proxies" are rarely painted or have any creative effort put into making it represent what the rulebook describes. However, the guy who converted Mr. Potatohead into an Ork Stompa obviously put the time, love and effort into converting and painting and I have no problem playing against those models.

[Erik Setzer]

If it's not something where literally no effort was put in, I don't see a problem.

Seriously, you want to compare how much you spent on armies like it's something to give you more reason to be a whiny little tosser? ("You" not referring to anyone on this topic in particular, but people like the one originally quoted.)

Let's see... I've got well over a thousand dollars in my Undead. And that's after I got a huge chunk of them for $800. Probably closer to $1500. I've got a Knight, purchased at full retail. Stompa, ditto. Lord of Skulls, ditto. (That last one wasn't painted by me, though. The GW manager sold off the store model he assembled and painted, only charging box price, and I HAD to have it because that thing and I have some good memories together.) I've got a huge Skaven army. Dwarf army. Orks must be closer to $3000-$4000 by now if you take them all in. I'll stop going down the armies now, but each one has at least a few hundred dollars in it, and there's a lot of them. I have conversions I've sank over a hundred dollars into. (I also have some that didn't cost quite that much, because if someone's selling a slightly messed up Land Raider for $5 or a scorched Tau tank for $3, I will gladly snatch them and convert for Orks.) Similarly, I've got those $1 Guntrukks, had Chaos Spawn made from $1 creatures (plus more than a dollar's green stuff), converted Possessed with wings from said $1 creatures.

If my opponent is enthusiastic about playing the game, and is doing so within their limits, I'll gladly play them. Not everyone can spend money like I can. (Granted, perhaps I shouldn't be spending as much.) Sure, I agree that coke cans and stuff are just not cool. But if someone had, say, a $40-$50 model (or, worse, a more expensive tank) break, and can't afford a replacement, I'll let them use the broken model (after offering to help fix it in any way I can, or offering creative suggestions on how to convert it).

Our game is social. And while GW might want to be elitist [censored]s who only want the richest of the rich playing their games while sipping whine and eating caviar and looking down on the great unwashed masses, that's a silly way to approach a social hobby. We need new players to play against. This ain't a cheap hobby. People do what they have to in order to get started. If they're at least trying, even if you don't think their painting skill is good enough, even if you think a Dark Eldar Sith Lord is a silly idea, even if you think they should pay full retail and not dare to save money, these people are at least investing something in the game. And if you work with them, and promote their enjoyment of the game, you'll help them want to invest more in it - more money, more time, etc. But if you turn your nose at them because you're "too good" to play with them, then you're also just an elitist [censored] and you're hurting the hobby.

(Part of this rant is fueled by my own experiences growing up in a pretty poor family. Luckily, I had understanding opponents. But heck, back then, it was no big thing to try to save money. A lot of us used Battlemasters games to fill out our WFB armies. It got even better when they were on clearance for $5 a box at a department store. I still use many of those models today, and they look just fine.)

[Captain Bubonicus]

A lot of us used Battlemasters games to fill out our WFB armies. It got even better when they were on clearance for $5 a box at a department store. I still use many of those models today, and they look just fine.)

Darned right! Most of my WHFB Chaos Warriors are still those old Battlemasters plastic figures!

[Erik Setzer]

Found the photos of the Spawn! Maybe not the best pics, but should get the point across.



- - - Updated - - -

Those are from 2005... I've definitely improved in my modeling and painting skills. Still, they were nice and simple and got the job done.

[Just Tony]

I disagree with your comments about Joe Orteza's models. I thought those were stunning and they often included bits from GW models. Those were works of art and he obviously put a lot of time, money, and love into making those models.

However, cheap-skating around with toys, Coke bottles, etc so you don't have to paint I find disappointing. Those "conversions" or "proxies" are rarely painted or have any creative effort put into making it represent what the rulebook describes. However, the guy who converted Mr. Potatohead into an Ork Stompa obviously put the time, love and effort into converting and painting and I have no problem playing against those models.

For me it's the issue of being able to tell what I'm playing against. That giant scorpion of his that had a couple weapon barrels sticking out of it would be a prime example. THAT was supposed to represent a Land Raider. His entire army was on that level. Yeah, congrats for sinking TONS of money and time on it, but since NOTHING in that army looked like what it was supposed to represent, I would have picked up if it were a casual game. It was even worse that it was a tourney that he brought it to. I once again bring up the Warzone army that someone brought to the table back in the day. Sure, you could tell they were humans and supposed to be an IG proxy, but NONE of the weapons had any of the visual cues that would lead you to instinctively know what they were, and I certainly don't have the time nor patience to try to navigate some sort of handwritten conversion chart for his army, not that he bothered to write one up. Proxying a unit or a large model is a vast difference than bringing some wad of whatever the hell it is and saying "Oh, you can't tell? That's army X."