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  1. #1
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    Default Respect and Proxies

    Some poor soul vented his opinions surrounding proxies on the Spikey Bits Hobby FB page, and 213 comments later he was torn to shreds. I really wanted to go back and read all the comments, but I can no longer find it.

    If I were on a battlefield with a Forge World Warlord Titan, and its giant foot were about to crush me, I would be staring up with wonder and a smile on my face.

    The poor fool that started that fire, felt that it came down to cost. People with proxies don't pay the same costs that people who purchase their models straight from the source do. So one day, the Forge World truck drives over a pothole and a Warlord falls off the back. I pick it up and paint it. You're facing off against it. I tell you about how fortunate I was and now, because it did not cost a thing, you are insulted.

    This is more about looks. I want my (personal) models to look good. Part of the reason I want them to look good is because I spent a ton of money on them. Games Workshop (sometimes) makes good looking models. Playing a game of 40k brings with it (mostly) agreed upon rules. Scale being one of them. How well you paint is NOT one of the agreed upon rules. But under those dollar store paints applied with a crayola airbrush, I can see a piece of art sculpted by Jes Goodwin. The scale, style and detail of the miniatures helps with immersion into the world, regardless of how well its painted.

    When someone takes it upon themselves to make a proxy, they are asking for it to be compared to the miniatures Games Workshop makes, because it is meant to be used within the 40k system of gaming. When the proxy does not fit with the design, scale or style of GW then you are affecting your opponents level of immersion into the 40k world.

    When commenting on someone's painting skill, it should be discussed with grace. Painting is a huge mountain to climb, and there is no easy way to the top. On the other hand criticizing someone's proxy, based on ascetic merit is different, because they had the option of buying the model GW makes. One enters the hobby with the expectation that opponents' models will be the quality that the game company established. The company makes the models, the company makes the game, so therefor an expectation is established.

    Not all proxies are created equal. Some look good, some don't. Some people feel very pleased with their work because they've never accomplished something as original before. That is great and wonderful. Sculpting is such a wonderful form of artistic expression, and should be appreciated, but if you want your sculpture to be appreciated within the scope of a table top wargame, you are bound to run into some problems.

    The 'rule of cool' is where money comes into it. Some proxies are completely acceptable; I will delight having your Warlord titan, made of 80% seashells, stomp my army to bits if it is truly a splendid model that fits the style, scale and design established in this universe.

    Ask yourself: "How much would it sell for?". Would someone want to own it ask much as they want the crack GW puts out? Then you will know if people would want to face off against it.

    Think of your proxy as a temporary thing. You're gonna play it a few times, get a feel for the unit, but then its onto bigger and better things. Try making the exact same model again and you're bound to make improvements. If it is your 'Go-To' unit, perhaps consider buying the actual model if you like it so much.

    What is the reason you're running a proxy? Is it cause you're too cheap? If the reason is something you'd rather not tell your opponent, then perhaps within a year that proxy should be replaced with something of a higher quality.

    Ask your opponent "Hey, how much would you pay for this fully painted proxy?" It you've running an Imperial Knight Proxy and the response is $90; you're good! If the response is a hesitant $40, then in the eyes of your opponent you're running a Landspeeder and saying it is a Knight.

    Does there need to be a line in the sand? I think so, or next time I'm bringing a dry-erase D&D mat, and that's my army. For line-of-sight purposes I can wave my hands around the space that my proxies occupy.
    "There's no use permitting some prophet of doom to wipe all your smiles away!"

  2. #2

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    Wow, I can't believe you said all that in public. I bet your loads of fun irl.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by son_of_volmer View Post
    ... criticizing someone's proxy, based on ascetic merit is different, because they had the option of buying the model GW makes.
    Are you trolling?

    Quote Originally Posted by son_of_volmer View Post
    When commenting on someone's painting skill, it should be discussed with grace. Painting is a huge mountain to climb, and there is no easy way to the top.
    Okay, sure. But why isn't it disrespectful when people don't get their models painted by a professional, then? It's the same situation, where you spend money to make something look good on the table. Are people "cheap" if they don't shell out for pro painting?

    EDIT: My guess is that amateur painting is okay because GW sells painting supplies and how-to books, but it doesn't sell modeling supplies except for things to enhance its own models. Maybe that's not what you had in mind, but when your definition of "respecting your fellow player" can't be distinguished from "give Games Workshop all the moneys," you need to ask yourself whose best interests you have in mind here.
    Last edited by Jewelfox; 02-02-2016 at 01:01 AM.

  4. #4

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    When it comes to proxies, my golden rules of life can be happily applied.

    Rule One - Be Consistent.
    In short, your Missile Launchers can totes proxy for say, Heavy Bolters for that game. However, they can't also be Missile Launchers, and LasCannons, and those two over there Autocannon.

    Rule Two - Be Realistic.
    If you're proxying another manufacturers model, using a stand in or using a scratch build, the dimensions need to be about right. To use an infamous example.... Bloodletters plonked on LotR horses do not Bloodcrushers make. They're considerably smaller in every way. That's a massive no-no in a game with True Line of Sight.

    Rule Three - Don't take the piss.
    If you're experimenting with your army before committing to purchase, far more leeway can be expected, regardless of the depth of your pocket. Some like to be sure, others have limited budgets, others yet are just naturally cautious. Rule Three applies to both parties. If you're still proxying after 3 months, just commit or convert already.

    Rule Four - Respect costs nothing.
    Last edited by Mr Mystery; 02-02-2016 at 04:19 AM.
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  5. #5
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    Default

    I'm flexible to a point. Putting down some Ork models because you don't have Flayers and you want to run the unit to get a feel? Sure, knock yourself out. Are there special weapons? Can you write down what counts as what so there's no reversal mid game? Then we're good. Showing up with a Warzone army that you're attempting to proxy as a Guard army so you don't lose out on money since Warzone flopped in the area and NONE of the weapons share visual cues that will make targeting a successful enterprise? **** straight off.

    And of course no cigarette pack Rhinos. Ever.

  6. #6

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    ahhh the age old source of strife and argument in 40k...proxying i'm fairly laid back as long as its clear what is what and your not out to "take the mickey" people often want to try new stuff before buying and in todays world that's cool but come on not 3 months later of the same unit being proxyed with the same models, you should have them by then

  7. #7

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    I'm laid back with proxying. Someone doesn't have the cash to get a particular model, but wants to try it out before they buy it? Sure, that Rhino is now a Land Raider for this particular game, whatever. Your Daemon Prince is a Great Unclean One, okay. Those four Devastators with a myriad array of weapons are all Lascannons? That's fine, it's GW's annoying habit of packing mixed weapons in a box that causes that. So long as it's not the entire army, that's fine.

    In terms of counts-as, I'm a big fan. I've seen some beautiful scratch-build work, and I've seen less-beautiful work that was still a solid attempt by the creator. I love armies converted to have a theme, where they have recognisable analogues to other models. A local guy has an army entirely made of Grots. Grots in stolen Termy armour as Meganobz, Grots riding Carnifexes as Deff Dredz. To be fair, you can't run Orks without a bit of counts-as, that's the fun of them.

    As long as the end result of a kitbash or scratch-build looks about the right size, is on the right base, and looks like an analogue to the thing you're saying it is, we're cool. I personally wanna try converting an "XV-101 Ironside Battlesuit" for my already fairly-converted Gue'vesa. It'd run under the Knight rules, but it'd be made to look like a more primitive, abandoned Riptide prototype. The Heavy Burst Cannon would look a bit more rugged to represent that Avenger Cannon they get, and it'd have a Double-Barreled Ion Cannon for the other weapon. An old, clunky prototype the Tau "gifted" to my Regiment.

    But then I have Ion Cannon Basilisks, Guardsmen in Fire Warrior armour and Chimeras with PuppetsWar turrets among many other unique eccentricities, so I'm a little biased. :P
    Read the above in a Tachikoma voice.

  8. #8

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    I think anyone who objects to an even half-decent Kitbash wants their bumps felt.

    It's been a part of the hobby since it began, and remains so today.

    Again, as long as you're not taking the mick with ridiculous 'modelled for advantage' nonsense, what's the difference?
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  9. #9

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    Depends on what we're talking about with "proxies" here.

    If someone wants to test an army list and have models count as something else for a one-off or maybe two or three matches, but clearly has the intention of fielding the correct models when they can (if their concept works out), then I have no issue with that. Same thing goes for people just starting out who don't have a lot of money. As long as you're clear on what it is, it's all good. And there's also people who have the models at home to assemble, but might want to test them in-game first (especially if there's options to assemble).

    Using non-GW models for stuff? No problem, as long as you're clear what it is. Plenty of Kromlech models are awesome for Orks, and I think it's fine for someone to use them. There are a number of IG alternatives that can let you make a sweet looking IG army that doesn't look like Yet Another Cadian Battalion. Want to use an Infinity model as an Assassion? Sure! Other companies' fantasy models in Warhammer? Have at it! Back when the Kult of Speed list came out for Orks in Codex: Armageddon, I found some resin tracked vehicles with a barrel sticking out of them and a big machine gun. They were perfect stand-ins for Guntrukks (you've got a kannon and big shoota, and they looked right), so I used them. The fact they were a dollar each shouldn't matter. They looked right with the army.

    And then there's mixing together various GW lines. I've used a Necromunda Spyrer as an Assassin. And there's converting or repurposing models for a unique style of army (usually doing a "counts-as" situation). I'm building a Rogue Trader's personal force (slowly, but surely). The Rogue Trader himself is a converted Commissar, and will use Inquisitor rules to reflect his access to gear. I've got models from Necromunda as other characters. I've got Necromunda gangs ready to act as Henchmen. I've got multiple squads of old metal IG that will act as, well, IG. I've converted some Empire Free Militia to be Henchmen. I converted a unit of Ogres, giving them shields made of battlefield scrap, and replacing their right hands with modified Stormfiend plague launchers to act as grenade launchers: boom, Bullgryn! I have a Dwarf Engineer standing in as a Squat Engineer (and he looks perfect for it). People might do Exodites for Eldar. They might convert Squats and use SM, IG, or even Ork rules. As long as they make sure you know what they are, it's all good.

    But come on here... We're talking about a company that included a card with a picture of a Dreadnought in a starter box with the serious expectation people would use it to represent a Dreadnought. When the heck did we get *this* snobby with the hobby?

    And the whole "It could break your opponent's immersion" argument is bunk. People have different views of what's immersive. I feel like Orks painted to be dumb beasts with no culture is immersion-breaking. Other people have knocked me for my multi-clan Ork army with units painted in different clan colors... even though that's how a Waaagh! works and how Ork armies of all types worked in 2nd edition. At the same time, someone might decide they want to do a "Crusade" army. Will you tell them that their Space Marines being painted for different chapters is wrong? They have a legitimate piece of fluff to back their army.

    If you're going to bash the quality of someone's conversions, then why stop yourself from attacking the quality of their painting? Is a sloppy paint job that immersive? No, it isn't. (And that's not even getting into lack of paint on a model, which could be for a number of reasons.) So do you attack that? No, because then you'd be a dick? Well, congrats, you just spotted the problem with many of the arguments you listed against proxies! "They don't have enough money to buy all the right models." So you're going to be a jerk because they don't have a lot of money but would like to participate? "Their conversions don't look good enough." So? Are you a freaking artistic genius? No? Then let it go. And it's the same as saying "Their paint jobs aren't good enough." "They're not using GW models!" Are you in a GW store? No? Then who cares? They might prefer someone else's models, and in some cases (many cases), you can find models that blow away GW's stuff for a lower price. Much of the talk of "model quality" really comes down to subjective commentary, so while you might think a model isn't as good as the one GW makes, the other person might feel like it's better.

    In short: Don't be a judgmental prick toward other gamers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Mystery View Post
    It's been a part of the hobby since it began, and remains so today.
    Yeah, freaking kids these days need to get off my lawn and take a history lesson. GW started out by making stuff for other folks' games and weren't such sticklers about using other models in Warhammer. The Rogue Trader (1st edition 40K) rulebook shows not only a deodorant stick tank, but IIRC, a GI Joe vehicle as well. The 3rd/4th edition 40K Vehicle Design Rules were specifically for people to kitbash their own vehicles and make rules for them.

    Just because the modern GW board wants you to think even looking at other minis is akin the serious sin of lust doesn't mean we should actually indulge them and act that way.

  10. #10

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    I don't know that's the case.

    Certainly where there's a commercially produced kit, you naturally see far fewer scratch builds, simply because the need is lessened.

    But I encourage everyone to embrace all aspects of the hobby, and konvertin' is certainly that
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