Respect and Proxies

[Morgrim]

Size is occasionally an issue with heavily converted/outright stand in models. For example my chronos (formerly my talos, but it's build for close combat more than shooting so I switched it with the new rules) is based off the old metal dark elf hydra. It is no longer the right sort of size and shape for the new talos/chronos kit. Mostly because they CHANGED the kit and I can't be bothered trying to bend metal necks to a better match.

On the other hand, my custom converted beastmasters are now closer in size to the official model than they were previously. If someone seriously tells me I cannot use my units because they aren't the same ones GW manufactures - despite having lots of GW parts (I play in a GW store) - the clearly I don't want to play them because they're jerks and, in my experience, are the sort of unpleasant rules lawyers that ruin games.

[Erik Setzer]

I have a bunch of Ork Wartrukks, GorkaMorka style. Certainly not the same size as the new ones. It annoys me when people act like I use them trying to get an advantage or something... rather than realizing I use them because they're GW models, I paid $20+ for each of them, and I don't see a burning need to rush out and drop a couple hundred dollars on replacing them with new models. Besides, in some cases, they're painted to match the units that used them (i.e. the Painboss's Wartrukk was painted white with red trim and red crosses... and a good bit of pooled blood).

Just because a new model comes out that changes the dimensions of an existing model doesn't mean the existing model - or proxies - should be considered obsolete.

Though, yeah, if someone used Epic models for proxies and claimed them as their height, or something cheeky like that, there'd be an issue.

[Charon]

Size is occasionally an issue with heavily converted/outright stand in models.

Not only with stand in Models. As no model is "illegal" and you are not forced to always buy "up to date" try to compare the new Bloodthirster to this one:


There is no statement that old models do become invalid.

Also some GW stores outlaw conversions if they include bitz from a 3rd party.

[Erik Setzer]

Sometimes I still break out the old Greater Daemons. Hey, they might just be compacted into a smaller physical shell. They're Daemons. This stuff happens. I'll often use them as Daemon Princes, but if I want to use them as a GD, no one's going to tell me that my model of a Bloodthirster can't be used as a Bloodthirster, unless they're opening their wallet to spend $116 on a replacement right then and there. Just because the model's size changed doesn't mean the old model is no longer valid.

[Denzark]

I think I find proxying more acceptable than 'counts-as'. The other day I got to a pre arranged game at my local GW to find I had not packed Mr Murderfang. THe Blackshirt pops a cabinet, loans me a Salamander FW dread. Now that I can cope with. I can also cope with 'mate I wanted to try a Damocles command rhino - that's this razorback.' But when someone pops a grey horde down, and says - these are white scar grav bikers. And then the next week - these are Ravenwing with invisibility and 2+ rerollable jinks. That shoite gets old quickly.

Also, I get the rule of cool. But I hate it in tournaments where I come across 'this is my world eaters using Space Wolf rules' or 'this is my thousand suns using Grey Knight rules'. I like to look at a mini and know what it is and what it does. Even when the player meticulously makes laminated guidance cards with a picture of the unit, I find the pause in the cut and thrust of a tournament time limited game, just breaks my flow - when I have to check - 'yeah those rebel grots are they an infantry platoon or veterans?'.

They look good, just I'd prefer not for time limited games.

Also, please don't go unbound, stick scarabs on a knight and then say it has been assimilated. Oh please. You want a SH Walker - don't try and fluff it - you want it for game effect because you can't find 375 points in your won codex that are as useful.

[Erik Setzer]

Also, please don't go unbound, stick scarabs on a knight and then say it has been assimilated. Oh please. You want a SH Walker - don't try and fluff it - you want it for game effect because you can't find 375 points in your won codex that are as useful.

I modeled my Knight with its shield hanging upside-down and its heraldry covered to represent a dishonored fallen knight who's trying to fight to get his honor back. It's specifically modeled so I can use it in any army I want, yes. But I did take time to do that.

[url]http://www.realmsofinisfail.com/2014/05/building-a-dishonored-knight/[/url]

(Poor thing's also been shot up. And because there were no AA weapons for Knights yet, even their main weapons couldn't shoot at flyers, I modeled shots across its top to indicate that little annoyance.)

Would you have a problem with me running this alongside Chaos, Orks, or Eldar, following the rules for allies?

[Denzark]

Chaos - no problem. They have an army list entry for Chaos Knights.

Eldar - I don't know why you would instead of a WK - but if they are not come the apocalypse, OK.

Orks - I'd rather you used the stomper or the new Mr potato head thingy, but again, if they are not come the apocalypse, OK.



I am not saying I wouldn't play it if someone did - or that come the apocalypse shouldn't be done. Its more about why the individual is going outside their own army list. If it is unbound purely for WAAC/power gaming purposes, I can't respect that.

[phoenix01]

One time I was challenged to a game, my homebrew Vanilla Marine chapter against my opponent's Blood Angels. We start pulling out models, mine are all WYSIWYG and painted, his are... well, not. He pulls out ten identical AoBR marines, all with bolters and slathered with blue paint, and says, "These are my Death Company, this one has a power sword, this one here has a plasma pistol and chainsword, and this one has..." He rattles off different war gear for each model, then finishes with, "...and they all have jump packs."

I said not a word as I packed up all my models.

[Erik Setzer]

Well, thanks to Games Workshop being lazy and shoving all Imperials together, it is CTA. That's an issue for me because mixing Imperials with my Orks *is* a thing that works with the fluff, since my latest Ork army is an all-Blood Axes army, and Blood Axes work with Imperials at times. I wouldn't have Space Marines working alongside the Orks, but Imperial Guard, Knights, or even Inquisitors (hey, they'll use Daemon weapons even) could fight alongside them. I think being Desperate Allies makes sense, which IIRC was how it was for Orks and IG.

If I ran the Knight with Eldar, it'd be because I don't have the money for a Wraithknight, don't want to use something *too* good, or, most likely, it'd be a fluffy reason with some back story explaining it.

The only time I went cheeky with it was for a tournament, where I made a list based on a joke and really just to show off my big models. The core was a Stompa, a Morkanaut, and a Knight. (The Stompa also had a Big Mek inside with a 4+ KFF, and a unit of Burna Boyz with three converted to Meks.) The joke was that a Big Mek, a Bad Mek, and a Knight met in a bar, and argued over which one could cause the most destruction, and they decided to go off to war to settle the argument and prove themselves. I even kept a running tally for each, and explained it to my opponents. Two of them laughed at it, the last one didn't but he was an odd sort to play against and rather annoying and kept trying to interpret the rules wrong and delay the game, and surprise, surprise, he beat me with his drop pod army (didn't help that at the time they hadn't clarified how super-heavy walkers treat difficult terrain, which slowed my guys down). One of the matches even had a Stompa-on-Stompa fight. The first one included my opponent summoning Daemons like crazy (more stuff to kill!). It was super fun, and really funny. (And not as bad as the guy who had a Warhound and a Librarian... mercifully in the game he got Invisibility, he used some other power first, got a Perils, and his Librarian forgot Invisibility. He still won that game, though.)

So hey, sometimes accepting weird combos can be fun.

It's also the only way to have, say, Guardsmen who've fallen to the sway of Chaos. Or, as one guy did, human soldiers being controlled by the Hive Mind. If someone has a solid, creative story, and modeled stuff to match the story, I think that's pretty cool, and I have no problem playing against it.

Where I might draw the line is one guy who always bashed Elves and Eldar and yet got a Dark Elf Sorceress model to use as a psyker (Imperial Guard rules) with the story that she's his Wolf Lord's consort. Because I guess Elves are okay if you're having sex with them and keeping them on a leash to use psychic powers to buff your army with Endurance every freaking game.

[Mr Mystery]

Not only with stand in Models. As no model is "illegal" and you are not forced to always buy "up to date" try to compare the new Bloodthirster to this one:


There is no statement that old models do become invalid.

Also some GW stores outlaw conversions if they include bitz from a 3rd party.

Again, there's the 'Don't take the piss' golden rule of, Erm.....me.

You're right that, strictly speaking, the above tiddly Greater Daemon remains game legal.

But

There's a world of difference between someone coming back into the hobby, someone dusting off an ancient army of yore to change things up, someone getting started with an army bought at a bootfair - and some arse seeking out that model because they think they get an advantage from its smaller stature.

The first three are all fine by me. The fourth? To me, it's no different to modelling for advantage.

Other opinions are of course available.