Respect and Proxies

[Ravingbantha]

By this line of thinking, anyone who buys used minis off ebay should be looked down upon. I can spend $40+ on a box of 10 Space Marines NoS, or I can buy a squad already assembled on Ebay for $10.What difference does it make if someone got a better deal then me, even if it's a box that fell off a truck? Good for them. Not everyone can afford to buy new or even to have a full army of GW mini's

As for Using proxies, I have no problem with people using them. Technically most every conversion is a proxy. Converting a Land Raider to be an Ork Battlewagon is technically a Proxy, since the model being used is not a GW produced Battlewagon, yet we alow this all the time. I've seen dozens of award winning conversions that are using all or part of one model to represent another. I have about 5 Rune Priests in my Space Wolves army, only one is the actual Wolf Priest model, the rest are conversions. So it could be argued that I am proxing a Grey Hunter/Blood Claw/Wolf Guard for a Rune Priest.

[Erik Setzer]

As for Using proxies, I have no problem with people using them. Technically most every conversion is a proxy. Converting a Land Raider to be an Ork Battlewagon is technically a Proxy, since the model being used is not a GW produced Battlewagon, yet we alow this all the time. I've seen dozens of award winning conversions that are using all or part of one model to represent another. I have about 5 Rune Priests in my Space Wolves army, only one is the actual Wolf Priest model, the rest are conversions. So it could be argued that I am proxing a Grey Hunter/Blood Claw/Wolf Guard for a Rune Priest.

I actually do have a Battlewagon based on a Land Raider kit heavily modified.

Also converted most of my Space Wolf characters. I'm really happy with the Iron Priest and Wolf Priest. The Rune Priest isn't a conversion, because I had the old metal model in a blister still.

And my Ogre characters are all converted from a box of Bulls with all kinds of bits added on, or even green stuff used. Part of it's because I didn't want to pay the crazy prices for the characters, but also it was really, really fun to convert them.

But in those cases and your examples, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what something is meant to be, and you can always explain it, right?

[Mr Mystery]

Odd tangent......

But do you ever get the feeling that some conversions are more readily accepted than others?

Orks for instance - it's completely par for the course.

Erik's Ogres - again, it's really common, and rarely frowned upon.

Characters in general just seem to be accepted, whether based on a GW model or not (my Dark Angels had a 'counts-as' Interrator Chaplain from, I think, Void)

But convert up a non-GW tank, and some get sniffy. Be it the fairly common IG from WWII, to more in depth Eldar Grav Tanks, there often feels to be an automatic resistance?

[Ravingbantha]

I actually do have a Battlewagon based on a Land Raider kit heavily modified.

Also converted most of my Space Wolf characters. I'm really happy with the Iron Priest and Wolf Priest. The Rune Priest isn't a conversion, because I had the old metal model in a blister still.

And my Ogre characters are all converted from a box of Bulls with all kinds of bits added on, or even green stuff used. Part of it's because I didn't want to pay the crazy prices for the characters, but also it was really, really fun to convert them.

But in those cases and your examples, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what something is meant to be, and you can always explain it, right?

For the most part, as long as you are abiding by the WYSIWYG rule, then you should be fine. I listed those examples specifically, because they are ones I have. I know a lot of ork players that use Land Raiders for Battle Wagons. Ive also seen a number of Ork conversions using non GW base items (the Mr Potato Head Stompa comes to mind) and no one seems to have a problem with that. It is interesting to see how people react to different things.

I've seen armies using Mantic zombies and no one bats an eye. But someone uses a realistic looking plastic T-Rex in their Lizardman army, and people loose their minds. I think in the end, what it really comes down to is effort, put in the effort to make a Non-GW item look cool and fit in with the rest of it, and people will let just about anything slide.

[Denzark]

I think it boils down to motivation. If that motivation is to get a gaming advantage...

[Dawg]

Here's another spin on the conversion/proxy/scratchbuild question. Actually, it's more of a question on the "acceptability" spectrum.

What's the opinion on papercraft builds and templates?

I've seen the whole spectrum there too, from the really shoddy black and white printouts that pretty much get crushed in a shoebox between games, to a properly resized baneblade that was built, sheathed in plasticard and had parts pulled from GW kits. The easiest way to identify it was by checking under the skirt because the guy refused to "send a tank into battle without a suspension."

And it was all based off that Baneblade template published in White Dwarf way back when. (#132)

I've seen snobbery on both sides, from both GW and pseudo-historical purists. And that doesn't even get into the third party aftermarket bitz debate and folks who do their own casting - bases, pauldrons and vehicle doors.

From what I can tell, it's worse than politics. You have to negotiate a pickup game.. then the narrative.. and then what's acceptable to for the "hobby" to be.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I think my main problem is that the lines between Proxy, Counts-As and Conversions can be so blurry. For example, I don't use standard box leader characters, they are always converted from spare parts because it's cheaper and the end result is more unique. So I end up with Commissars in my Gue'vesa like this guy:


(Those are Servitor-Drones behind him.)

But then you have relatively minor modifications like [URL="http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/coffeegrunt/Guevesa%20Guard%20WIP/WP_20150313_22_31_13_Pro.jpg"]attaching Sun Shark engines to a Valkyrie[/URL]. Or an [URL="http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/coffeegrunt/4th%20Tarosian%20Regiment/WP_20150617_23_03_28_Pro.jpg"]Ion Cannon, Burst Cannons and Drones to a Baneblade[/URL]. Or just [URL="http://s148.photobucket.com/user/coffeegrunt/media/4th%20Tarosian%20Regiment/WP_20150708_01_05_58_Pro.jpg.html?sort=3&o=17"]replacing a Chimera Turret altogether to look more futuristic[/URL].

My army is full of this stuff. [URL="http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/coffeegrunt/4th%20Tarosian%20Regiment/WP_20150930_11_42_58_Pro.jpg"]Ion Cannon Basilisks[/URL]. [URL="http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/coffeegrunt/4th%20Tarosian%20Regiment/WP_20151008_01_04_56_Pro.jpg"]Drone-Controlled Mortars[/URL]. [URL="http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/coffeegrunt/Guevesa%20Guard%20WIP/WP_20151030_00_36_08_Pro.jpg"]Missile Pod Quad-Guns[/URL]. [URL="http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/coffeegrunt/Guevesa%20Guard%20WIP/WP_20150308_20_36_33_Pro.jpg"]Rail Rifle-wielding Veterans[/URL].

The problem I have is that, to me, this kind of stuff is the stuff that makes it my army. Not just Generic Cadian Collection #134234. The odd blend of Tau and Imperial tech with some other stuff as well. I mean, I have to run through what everything is with my opponents, but as I'm building this stuff, there's typically fluff behind it. The Drone-Mortars are autonomous units left on their own to rain suppressing fire on distant targets the force is closing in on. The Rail Rifles those Veterans carry fire heavier slugs, which is why their Range and AP are worse, but the Strength is higher. It also stresses the power supply, hence Gets Hot. That Ion Cannon is basically the Wraith from Halo, but bigger.

Given that I still run everything out of Codex: AM, I run through everything beforehand with my opponent, justify it with fluff and have tried my best to make it all look good, I personally don't think it's fair that someone consider my army as being less than a generic one.

[Erik Setzer]

That kind of stuff is what really makes the game fun, and makes the hobby as a whole fun. Plopping out the same army as everyone else just seems like wasted opportunity, if you have ideas to do something else. There's a whole galaxy of fluff, and a ton of models and bits to use. As long as you make it clear, shouldn't be a problem, and seeing new conversions or even new army concepts is fun.

The complete opposite end of the spectrum, where someone tries to sub a standard AoBR Tactical Squad in as a Death Company with varying gear and jump packs (unless it's a one-off thing just to test which is agreed upon first), that's where it's okay to feel like they're not putting in effort.

Converting? Oh heck no. That's effort. Painting? Even if it's not amazing, they tried. Third party stuff that's clearly what it's meant to be? Works. Someone paid less money than you did or has an older version of a model with current rules? Hey, they still got the model through non-shady means, it's legal, no worries. Someone goes to the trouble of making a decent looking plasticard Baneblade? Cool (but then wonder about their sanity).

The hobby is meant to include all these different things, so I don't see why anyone would want to not have as much variety as possible on the table. Makes the game more fun.

[Mr Mystery]

Here's another spin on the conversion/proxy/scratchbuild question. Actually, it's more of a question on the "acceptability" spectrum.

What's the opinion on papercraft builds and templates?

I've seen the whole spectrum there too, from the really shoddy black and white printouts that pretty much get crushed in a shoebox between games, to a properly resized baneblade that was built, sheathed in plasticard and had parts pulled from GW kits. The easiest way to identify it was by checking under the skirt because the guy refused to "send a tank into battle without a suspension."

And it was all based off that Baneblade template published in White Dwarf way back when. (#132)

I've seen snobbery on both sides, from both GW and pseudo-historical purists. And that doesn't even get into the third party aftermarket bitz debate and folks who do their own casting - bases, pauldrons and vehicle doors.

From what I can tell, it's worse than politics. You have to negotiate a pickup game.. then the narrative.. and then what's acceptable to for the "hobby" to be.

Papercraft - it's really going to vary.

To use your examples above.....the black and white print outs, made out of standard A4 - yeah, you're just being a cheapskate now. The Baneblade? I think it's a bit smaller than the plastic model in length and width, but loses any advantage there by being taller. If someone's gone to town on a scratchbuild, then all cool with me.

But if I think someone is just being a cheapskate (not the same thing as of limited hobby funds, I hasten to clarify) then I'd already suspect they may not be much fun to play against - not a universal thing, but a general trend spotted over the years.

Aftermarket bitz? I object to parasites like CH who just use IP willy-nilly, but not the practice of providing oddities in itself, and I'm not going to refuse someone a game just because they've got CH bitz on their models.

The complete opposite end of the spectrum, where someone tries to sub a standard AoBR Tactical Squad in as a Death Company with varying gear and jump packs (unless it's a one-off thing just to test which is agreed upon first), that's where it's okay to feel like they're not putting in effort.

Yep. Back in 2nd Edition, I used to run two Dark Angel Assault squads. And they had a real mix of weapons. Powerfists, Powerswords, Poweraxes, Hand Flamers, Plasma Pistols, and of course Disposable Bob and Expendable Bill, who had no spanky weapons. When playing, I paid for their upgrades and played WYSIWYG. If I wanted to use them in a smaller game, then the whole squad went in without upgrades - kept it nice and simple, especially with the courtesy of reminding my opponent every turn 'remember dude, Assault Squad is barebones. Bolt Pistol and Chainsword only'

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Though, yeah, if someone used Epic models for proxies and claimed them as their height, or something cheeky like that, there'd be an issue.

Lol, cryptek used shrinking ray on those marines or they are the Antman chapter :P Now I want to see tiny 6mm marines climbing up a normal scale rhino.