Deep striking combat squads

[hisdudeness]

I have read the entire section, hence the quote of multiple lines of rules supporting my claim. You have quoted a few that have been disproven. This is a simple discussion, I make a claim with supporting rules. You support you claim with supporting rules and discredit my interpretation of the rules. I then return the favor. Can you quote me a rule the supports “The Act of using reserves is ‘Deploying’.” I have read the section 3 times today and cannot find it.

You my friend are partially correct, INF PLT is one FOC. But if you read all of the rules on p96 C:IG after ‘Composition’ you will see that: “…,and is rolled collectively when rolling for reserves.” And since Codex trumps BRB, we make one roll for reserves for the entire platoon. After that, each unit can be placed where ever it is legal to do so, be it together or spread all over the board.

Context? Deploying Forces and Mission special rules sections are the only sections we need out of the BRB. They give us all the context we need as we are only discussing deployment and reserves interaction. The quotes I have used support my claim, so I do not see how I am using them incorrectly. That is what rules quotes do, support a claim on how the game is played. This is not a petty grammar claim, the rules are pretty clear multiple times, as shown in post #9. Unless the BRB or codex does not say something to the effect that units held in reserves are deployed, then units held in reserves are not deployed.

You have yet to quote a line in the BRB or a codex that changes the fact that “ …,player may choose NOT TO DEPLOY one or more units in their army and INSTEAD leave them in reserves.” Seems pretty clear to me.

The fact that deployment is between 2 other phases/steps/etc means nothing besides a note on when something happens, not that everything in that phase/step/etc is counted as the name of the phase/step/etc. Again I state, we can use psychic powers in the movement phase, but that does not (generally) mean that the unit using the power cannot move or the power counts as movement. The same with reserves, we declare reserves during deployment but that does not make it deployment.

Drop pods are clarified because I could claim, without such a clarification, that when I combat squad out of a drop pod the squads could deploy anywhere on the board as per “Both combat squads can be deployed in separate locations.” (p51, C:SM). As the next line is the “one exception” to the afore mentioned rule.

Combat squading occurs during a units deployment, this is the only requirement for when it may happen. This is normally done during the deployment phase/step/etc but is not limited to this phase/step/etc by the rules that I see.

Lobster-overlord, I too have seem WD battle reports do fishing things. But some of these battle reports are months (years?) old or are part of a play testing of early rules. They also make mistakes (or use house rules) just like everyone else. At least that is what I have been told by the interwebz.

[EnglishInquisition]

"Drop pods are clarified because I could claim, without such a clarification, that when I combat squad out of a drop pod the squads could deploy anywhere on the board as per “Both combat squads can be deployed in separate locations.” (p51, C:SM). As the next line is the “one exception” to the afore mentioned rule."

Except having to deploy within 2" of an access point of the vehicle you disembark from!!

Really can't understand the confusion on this one, it is stated clearly that combat squads are split pre game (or when you put your little men on the table top, doesn't really matter as long as your opponent knows what they have done and how they are made up) and rolled for seperately for reserves, except the drop pod which allows a unit to disembark and then seperate. Otherwise when the game runs against you, unscrupulous players will say that squads held in reserve were/weren't combat squadded as they need, making less reserve rolls to get more troops on the table, or trying to take more reserve rolls to delay parts of their army.
It not only says that they combat squad pre-game, it just naturally feels right to do it this way.
Think we are definately straying into Rules Lawyers vs Spirit of the Game here.

[hisdudeness]

The question from synack is simple, does being held in reserves count as/equal deployed. Synack has asked for a rule that backs up one of the 3 claims he has heard.

So far, no one has supported any other claim with a rule. All I see are flimsy unsupported arguments and claims of intent or spirit. When has doing as the rules say ‘rules lawyering’? I cannot understand the confusion of “…, player may choose NOT TO DEPLOY one or more units in their army and INSTEAD leave them in reserves.”

“choose not to deploy” is clearly stated. Whereas the claim the squads are spilt pregame is in no way supported by anything other than an interpretation. The combat squad rules clearly state that the ability is triggered “…when the unit is deployed.” I see nothing supporting the claim that a unit can only be deployed and thus limited to pregame, in fact (see post #9) I see numerous times where the opposite is shown.

EnglishInuisition, you claim the rules state we combat squad pregame. Could you give us a location to this rule? That is what synack has asked for, rules to back up each of the ‘options’ on how to play the situation.

The point of contention is if being held in reserves is counted as deployed. Can any one point us to a rule that supports any other claims?

[Tynskel]

You are getting really crazy with your interpretation of the rules. 'choose not to deploy' ON THE BOARD... you are choosing to deploy through reserves!

These 'reserve' rules are part of the a whole group of rules-- not independent rules- these rules are dependent on each other. They begin with setup of the board, choosing a mission, deploying, then playing the game. All of deployment happens BEFORE the game begins, NOT during.

you are going off into the deep end with your Drop Pod rule interpretation. Choosing to Omit rules to support your case-- you have to disembark the drop pod, you don't deep strike out of the drop pod.

I made a mistake with the imperial guard codex, leaving out a rule--- but you are leaving out rules allllll over the entire game section.

[synack]

I have to agree with hisdudeness.

*EDIT*
Infact, lets explore Tynskels argument first that deployment happens in the deployment phase. So we read through the section on page 92, the Secition Headed "DEPLOY FORCES", sub heading "Mission Special Rules", which says the following: "All standard missions and deployment types use the following special rules, detailed on pages 94 and 95: 'reserves' and 'deep strikes'."

So to find out how we handle reserves in terms of deployment, we follow the rules out lined below
*/EDIT*

First, there is a difference between the deployment phase and acutally deploying a unit.

So lets look at the rules for reserves and what it says about how the unit is deployed.

On page 94, first sentence under Preparing reserves. "When deploying their army, players chose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve"

Then again, on page 94, under Rolling for reserves, 2nd paragraph "One all the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one unit arriving and deploys it on to the table described later".

Once more on page 95, last sentence, 1st paragraph "Roll for reserves, then deploy them as follows"

From those three lines, we now know that we can deploy a unit from reserve, be it outflanking, table edge or deep strike. The unit is deployed when it comes into play when coming from reserves.

Now lets look at the combat squads rule.

"The decision to split the unit into combat squads, as well as which models go into each combat squad, must be made when the unit is deployed"

Okay, so the decision to combat squad them is made when the unit is deployed, which doesn't have to acutally be in the deployment phase, if the units are in reserve.

This seems pretty clear cut to me.

[hisdudeness]

I do not see ‘on the board’ anywhere on page 92, BRB. I also do not see any place that states held in reserves equals deployed. But I do see, in numerous places, where we are told what is considered deployed. These as cited in post 9. To sum it up, entering by reserves (p94) and deep strike (p95), both tell us that the unit DEPLOYS at that time. This also disproves your claim that “All of deployment happens before the games begins, not during.” as we area clearly told otherwise.

Yes the mission special rules are part of the deploying force section, but we are not told that reserves equal deployed which is the issue. I see a change for the normal action of deploying (do not deploy) and a replacement if we take the change (instead hold in reserves). I also see a “During deployment,…” that gives us a note on when we declare reserves (during the deploying forces step) and tells us that we must explain how the units in reserves are organized. We are still not told reserves equal deployed.

I fail to see how any of this is omitting/cherry picking rules to support my claim. I have quoted rules from the entire section in question. I have yet to see a quoted rule supporting any claim you have made.

The drop pod example has gotten crazy, so let me clarify. When a squad enters play by drop pod, it is not deployed, the drop pod is. So the squad would be unable to combat squad at that time. The ‘one exception’ is that the squad that disembarks from a drop pod can now combat squad. And without this exception we could make a case that they could be deployed separately because the combat squad rules state “both combat squads can be deployed in separate locations.” But the exception replaces all the normal combat squad rules (when and how) with the squad can combat squad as it disembarks (in which we must follow normal rules for disembarking).

To simplify: Combat squad= a squad may split in to 2 squads and those squads may deploy separately. But the exception replaces all of this if the squad disembarks from a drop pod.

My statement about drop pods in post 21, was a failed attempt to illustrate what could be claimed without the ‘one exception’ rule.

Synack has summed it up as I see it. Until a rule is found the makes held in reserves mean the unit is deployed, we are at an impasse. Combat squad is not triggered until the unit is deployed

[EnglishInquisition]

Ok here we go.

Page 86 big rule book (brb?)ORGANISING A BATTLE
1. agree points limit & choose scenario
2. Prepare the battlefield
3. Select a Mission
4. DEPLOY FORCES
5. Start the game

P94 brb "preparing reserves"
Paragraph 1 When DEPLOYING their armies.........
Paragraph 2 During DEPLOYMENT, when declaring which units are left in reserve, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his reserves to his opponent.

Also see "outflank" - During deployment, players may declare.........

Space Marine Codex P51 Combat Squads:
The decision to split the unit into combat squads, as well as which models go into each combat squad, must be made when the unit is DEPLOYED........ so on.


If deployment is step 4 in the order of battle and starting the game is step 5 then surely it makes sense that combat squads are done before the start of the game?

[synack]

Its like everyone just ignores the rules in the deployment section saying that you should got the reserve sections to find out how to deploy units from reserve.

Quite amusing really.

[hisdudeness]

Both instances tell us when we declare reserves, not that units are deployed in to reserves. It also tells we must declare organization at this time. It may make sense, but that is not what the rules tell us.

All the quotes synack and I have made clearly state that the action in the quote causes the unit to be deployed. You are asking us to infer that since declaring reserves is in the deploy forces step it must be a form of deployment. This is not the case, as we are not clearly told we deploy in to reserves.

EnglishInquistion along with Tynskel, are implying that any action that happens during the deploying forces step is a deployment. You are also claiming that deployment can only happen during deploying forces step, which is completely incorrect. Quote a rule that supports these claims. Claiming, correctly, that declaring reserves is part of deploying force step does not prove anything besides that we declare reserves during the deploying forces step. I do not see how one can get any more out of it besides what we are told.

I agree synack, those arguments have not even been answered.

[EnglishInquisition]

[QUOTE=hisdudeness;68070]Both instances tell us when we declare reserves, not that units are deployed in to reserves. It also tells we must declare organization at this time. It may make sense, but that is not what the rules tell us. QUOTE]

WOW! It may make sense, but that is not what the rules tells us! That isn't rules lawyer-ing?

The very fact that all the rules being quoted come from the "Deploy Forces" section of the rulebook should give you a big hint here too.

Even if you go back to the "Select a Miision" section p90-91 brb.in the 3 missions available, 2 of them actually state ""after positioning of the objectives, DEPLOYMENT of the forces begins, as described in the type of deployment being used."

If we then turn the page we come to the "Deploy forces" section and then we get clarifications on preparing and rolling for those units that are placed (deployed) in reserve.