Zombies, Klendathu and The Absurdly Violent Intergalactic Space Fungus.

[Denzark]

but wouldn't that make it possible that the Ethereals themselves aren't being intentionally tyrannical, but instead falling into the role that has been designed for them?


The Tau are apparently made to follow just as much as the Orks are made to fight. They aren't so different after all.

Drew gets the crux of my argument from a slightly different flank. If the Ethereals are hardwired to lead - doing it on a biological basis - that is exactly the same motivation that makes orks fight - biological compulsion based upon DNA. On that basis, the relative 'evilness' of either species must be judged on the exact same basis.

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As for you points about meritocracies, I think what you say is true until you consider inheritance- the rich in this case can not only maintain their own position, but then maintain the positions of their descendants, regardless of the aptitude of the descendants. This is the bit that is not meritocratic.

But that is the status quo. Some people spend it all regardless. Some people - I think the cruellest of the cruel - withhold financial support and say 'stand on your own 2 feet.' I say that is cruel because that to me is exactly the same as saying 'I'm not going to have you inoculated because if you are healthy enough you will survive.'

The direct comparison is that an Ork might as a fluke of genetics, be stronger than his predecessor and thus compete for warboss as a matter of strength. He did not necessarily do anything of his own merit other than be fortunate that his fungus spores gifted him intelligence and strength enough to prosper. Exactly comparable to receiving an inheritance that allows you to forge on in society.

Yes an ork that goes to school and spends his free time weightlifting and learning martial arts so he can challenge for warboss is more meriting than a RL rich person inheriting their way to the top. But for the vast majority it is innate cunning and strength takes them there - as flukey as inheritance in the cosmic scheme.

[grimmas]

The more we discuss this the more I'm thinking that the Tau caste system has very little to do with control. The Ethereals exert control over the rest of the Tau through other means with out the Castes this would still exist. Far from being a system of control the Tau Castes are a means of maximising the Tau race. Take Farsight he rebelled not because of the absence of the Caste system which remained uncharged he did so because the Ethereals on his force all got killed and he found out he was a megalomaniac. It isn't social pressure that keeps the The Ethereals in charge it's an actual trait. An Etheral isn't in charge just because mum and dad were rich he's in charge because Ethereals actually have control over other Tau. Also the different strains of Tau existed before the influence of the Etherals they just refined It. Unlike the Indian caste system the Tau system isn't a pyramid with the number of people involved reducing as their power increase, with the exception of the Ethereals each Caste of the Tau is on an equal footing. The whole thing has more in common with eugenics and an equal opportunities apartheid than a Caste system. Each Caste also functions as a meritocracy within itself and there's no data to suggest that one caste would be better at taking another's role. In fact the history of the Tau seems to suggest that the non Ethereal castes are unsuitable to lead. Unless of course it's all just an Ethereal fabrication l

The Orks on the other hand do possess a pyramidal society with Orks at the top followed by Gretchin, snotlings and squigs who increase in numbers he further down the pyramid. They literally have slave subspecies. Only Orks are going to lead because they the only ones big enough and strong enough. That's a form of social control right there it isn't the cleverest or most cunning it's because it's the biggest. Of course that's fine if your an Ork the more fighting you do the more powerful you become but you're sh*t out of luck if you're a Gretchin. Of course the real difference is that Orks don't have any control on who gets "born" an Ork that's all down to existing population levels. Meritocracy in Orkoid society only really applies to Orks a Gretchin is only going to keep what the Orks let him keep.

I still don't think either are evil in the Grimdark of the far future it all about survival of your species irrelevant of wether or not some random Firewarrior just wants to sing rather than fight. I think some might be making the same mistake that Eldrad the Perverse brings by labelling the Tau as evil when in fact the unity their caste system provides is the only thing allowing their survival.

[Psychosplodge]

Another interesting read as usual Yorkie.

[Mr Mystery]

Drew gets the crux of my argument from a slightly different flank. If the Ethereals are hardwired to lead - doing it on a biological basis - that is exactly the same motivation that makes orks fight - biological compulsion based upon DNA. On that basis, the relative 'evilness' of either species must be judged on the exact same basis.

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But that is the status quo. Some people spend it all regardless. Some people - I think the cruellest of the cruel - withhold financial support and say 'stand on your own 2 feet.' I say that is cruel because that to me is exactly the same as saying 'I'm not going to have you inoculated because if you are healthy enough you will survive.'

The direct comparison is that an Ork might as a fluke of genetics, be stronger than his predecessor and thus compete for warboss as a matter of strength. He did not necessarily do anything of his own merit other than be fortunate that his fungus spores gifted him intelligence and strength enough to prosper. Exactly comparable to receiving an inheritance that allows you to forge on in society.

Yes an ork that goes to school and spends his free time weightlifting and learning martial arts so he can challenge for warboss is more meriting than a RL rich person inheriting their way to the top. But for the vast majority it is innate cunning and strength takes them there - as flukey as inheritance in the cosmic scheme.

I think you have to look at the history of the Tau, and their social structure compared to Orks.

Orks are, allegedly, a genetically engineered warrior race. Other than Biggest Leads, they don't have set conventions. Grots and Snots get kicked about because under Biggest Leads, that's a-ok and no Orkoid has ever questioned it. It's Just The Way It Is.

They may have had a defined caste system for Da Boyz back in the past - the existence of Clans (which you're not born into or limited to. You join up because you like Speed, or Lootin', or Sneakin' About etc) suggests there was a long forgotten system. Take for instance Bad Moons. Their teef grow faster than any other Orks with the inference being they were once a sort of mercantile class. In the modern era of course, it just means they're richer than most Ork Boyz.

This advantage however is explicitly not seen as unfair by other Boyz - after all, if you're 'ard enough you can just knock a Bad Moons teef out his gob and run off with them.

The Tau however....No breeding outside your caste. Builders only Build. Negotiators only Negotiate, so on and so forth. Now fair enough it's an ordered society where a smaller evil of a caste system is used to fend off the chaos of anarchy and internal conflict. But....the Ethereals.....just where did they come from? Who are they? There's definitely something nefarious going on there, because this is 40k, and nice things happen to no-one.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Another interesting factor is that in the Shadowsun novel, it's revealed that the Tau actually put stock in hereditary bloodlines, as Shadowsun hails from a reknowned Fire Caste lineage.

Conversely, the Orks have no way of establishing hereditary power. In fact, their economy is entirely reliant on teef, which biodegrade meaning that wealth can't be accumulated easily. You must always be actively earning money, and the only way to do that is by punching other Orks in the face. This again links into the Might = Right philosophy.

The direct comparison is that an Ork might as a fluke of genetics, be stronger than his predecessor and thus compete for warboss as a matter of strength.

That's a note on the Darwinism in their kultur. That one becoming Warboss ensures that the strongest always lead, and they get stronger.

Orks also actively get stronger by fighting, mostly through the WAAAGH! psychic field. This is why Ghazghull has been establishing endless wars of attrition throughout the galaxy and summoning Orks to them, because the Orks that survive at the end will be the toughest Orks the galaxy has seen yet.

[Mr Mystery]

It also helps that Orks have a unanimous agreement in Might makes Right, especially as beyond that bold statement, there's no other rules. If you can beat them up, you take their position, regardless of just how you achieved it.

So with economic and political considerations removed, Ork society is a happy society!

[grimmas]

Yes definitely Coffeegrunt.

It's also mentioned in the Firewarrior novel as well. Although it seems to be more a case that they expected them to do well/more rather than nepotism. Regardless of bloodline they are still expected to complete the same trials as everyone else. The whole of Tau culture is about selective breeding.

Of course Orks have no way of defermining hereditary lineage either seeing as though start as spores and no breeding goes on. Developing this further as an engineered race that reproduces asexually will they ever evolve? Probably not but they don't really to need to considering they are able to optimise their habitat to their needs just by existing. Not that they care anyway. I'm so digging the Orks out when I get home, my wife is going to be soooo happy when I get my scratch built stomps out of storage 😊

[Morgrim]

Asexually reproducing organisms can still evolve, just slower than sexually reproducing ones. In the case of orks, they shed spores throughout their lives. An ork that is more skilled will live longer, survive more fights (I can't remember where but it is explicitly stated that orks shed spores much more intensely while fighting) and therefore shed more spores. If there are any biological inheritance their offspring will get some, and by having many more offspring they're out-competing their weedier rivals.

That said, orks are the one species where I suspect a significant chunk of their inheritance may actually be psychically, not genetically. Waaargh fields are known and powerful objects that are strongly influenced by the orkkin that make them up, so I suspect situations like "not enough squigs, we're hungry" or "we're stuck on a hulk and need some weirdboyz to take us to where tha fightin is" would result in more of the required critters developing from the local spores.

[YorkNecromancer]

Another interesting read as usual Yorkie.

Well, you asked for an article on Orks, so this was literally done for you.

No idea what the next one's going to be...

These things take bloody ages to plan!

[Psychosplodge]

Well, you asked for an article on Orks, so this was literally done for you.

No idea what the next one's going to be...

These things take bloody ages to plan!

I did, and you didn't disappoint. Thanks
While I don't necessarily agree with all of it, it's an interesting viewpoint.
though I thought the Tolkien orcs were supposed to represent WW1 germans?