Zombies, Klendathu and The Absurdly Violent Intergalactic Space Fungus.

[Denzark]

Given that Yorkie referenced the original writers in the first place, it is fair that we discuss the original fluff- as the aforementioned writers intended it to be. Here is a screen grab from 'Ere We Go':




Where you can clearly see the word caste being used. Orks have been a caste based society in the minds of the authors right from the start.

In fact the system of tribe/clan/caste is directly analogous to the Tau system of septs and caste.

[Mr Mystery]

That refers only to Oddboyz.

[Denzark]

I don't buy that - where they say: 'The caste of orks collectively known as oddboyz' that to me clearly implies there are castes of orks known as other things. Or you would have written: 'They form a separate caste of orks...'

I have yet to find a free link to a pdf of Waaargh Orks which I reckon discusses it in more depth, but I seem to recall (flogged my copy years back) it discusses orks as a caste based society.

[grimmas]

If one subscribes to the Brainboys theory there maybe more in common between Tau and Orks than first glance. A master race manipulating the genetics and envolution of the rest of the species to create warriors/workers etc. It's just that the Brainboys disappeared where as the Etherals are still around. Seeing as how Farsighted is turning out who knows may be.

[CoffeeGrunt]

What if I told you, that it's possible GW used the wrong word to describe something?

[grimmas]

What if I told you, that it's possible GW used the wrong word to describe something?

In the context of oddboys I think it's perfectly acceptable.

[Morgrim]

We have all, after all, tried to make sense of some of the rules they've written. :P

[YorkNecromancer]

What if I told you, that it's possible GW used the wrong word to describe something?

This is the thing, isn't it?

In sociology, a caste is a socially constructed boundary; you're born into it, and you can't leave it because of societal pressures: people attack you, censure you, exclude you, etc...

In the old GW materials, they use caste in a less precise way, as an inaccurate synonym meaning 'social grouping', and you can see that, because a Painboy isn't forced into being one by its peers, or by social pressure, which is what would happen in a true caste system: orks would track the boyz their spore produced, and ensure that if they were a Mek, their spore would all become Meks. But that's not what happens. On ork becomes a Painboy because that's what his brain tells him to be. It's not really a choice, more a vocation, and not socially-enforced permanent one. If said Painboy gets a lust for power, it can always start whacking other orks around the head and calling itself a Warboss until either they do as they're told, or until a bigger or more kunnin' ork comes along and whacks him over the head.

Which is the definition of a meritocracy.

As I said in my last blog, the type of caste system I was referring to has three key factors: endogamy, non-commensality and hereditary occupations. Orks don't marry, and they all eat together, so those two are null and void. And occupations are a result of genetics, but they aren't hereditary: any Ork becomes what they want to, based upon the information encoded within them by the Brainboyz (if you go by the earliest fluff) or by 'chance' (if you go by the revised modern fluff). Any ork can give off spores which might potentially become a Painboy, a Mek, a Whatever-boy, so therefore the last of the three criteria remains unfulfilled. Painboys don't teach only their 'sons' to be new Painboys; they just teach whoever shows up wanting to learn how to put a squigbrain in the an injured boyz head, which is the very definition of a meritocracy.

As none of the three criteria of a caste system can be applied to Ork kultur, orks cannot be said to be a caste system in the same sense as the Tau or as a human caste system. The GW writers simply used caste as a simple sci-fi shorthand, rather than in its more specific sense.

[Denzark]

Is the Tau system a 'socially constructed boundary' or is it based on Ethereal pheromones - ie biological?

Either way I can still find no indication of non-commensality within the Tau cast system. Random quote: 'Their tolerance also extends to themselves, as the Tau recognize even lowly Fio'la workers as being as important to the operation and well-being of the Empire as Shas'vre Battlesuit leaders or even the highest Aun'o'.

Within a given sept, the tau all work together - there is nothing to indicate never the twain shall meet between castes, nor that one caste feels itself superior to another,

The Sept is almost more important and whilst I full acknowledge the endogamy of the Tau - I am not convinced by hereditary occupations. A Water caste can be traders, merchants, public servants, bureaucrats, administrators, diplomats, and ambassadors - but I have not seen anywhere that says that is hereditary as opposed to personal choice.

Lexicanum alludes that 'Each caste could almost be considered a subspecies of their own, such are the variations between the caste members'. I think this is far more pertinent as this shows the role is biological imperative rather than sociological conditioning.

Because there is plenty of fluff showing all Tau working together towards the greater good, and respect for other castes, I don't think you get more than 1.5 out of 3 ticks of Yorkie's definition of a caste system.

I think if one can accept that GW used 'caste' erroneously, as 'sci-fi short hand' whilst describing ork kultur, one should equally be able to accept that GW, only going about halfway if giving the Tau fluff that meets the definition of a caste system, did not intend for the Tau to be evil by association.

Further, if describing orks using might to get to the top is the very definition of meritocracy, then orks using might to stay at the top must be meritocracy. That also tells me Yorkie must surely define The Imperium as a meritocracy because they use strength/force to maintain their own status quo. Actually, in real life, the rich using their financial might to maintain their stauts quo and not let the poor get to the top must also be a meritocracy - with rich man substituting for Warboss and poor man substituting for 'smaller ork with eye on the top'.

Edited to add - I only own Mont'ka hard copy. From that and Lexicanum - hardly a mass body of research - I can find no ideas of non-commensality amongst the Tau. Anyone out there with actual codexes or novels may be able to reference evidence of this which I would fully concede to - I just don't have any to hand.

[CoffeeGrunt]

The Air Caste live entirely in zero-g and their bodies can't handle gravity wells due to their lightweight frame, so they're definitely not eating with the Earth Caste factory workers. As much as you say there's no sign of non-commensality, there's also no sign that there is, either.

Also the needs are biological due to enforced inbreeding.