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  1. #1
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    Default Abaddon is going to Win (and it's all Guilliman's fault)

    Abaddon is going to win.

    Not only that in it's current state the Imperium won't be able to stop him.

    I've been hitting the books (BL, FW and GW proper) and this is the conclusion I've arrived at.

    Let's start at the beginning. The Great Crusade and Horus Heresy have shown us that it's all about the Astartes. There is nothing in the Galaxy that can't be beaten with the correct application of Astartes. They are the kings of the battlefield in the 41st Millennium much like the Tank in The Second World War. Much like the Shadukar in Dune they are the defining force that created and holds the empire together. interesting I think this is one of the biggest conceptual misconceptions people make when comparing Astartes to the Mobile infantry of Starship Troopers ( the book not film) but more of that later. Basically who controls the greatest force of Astartes controls the Galaxy and that "Who" is Abaddon

    In fact I'd go as far to say that only Abaddon controls any Astartes and all the Imperium possess is Space Marines. Astartes are main line troops who fight major campaigns In real numbers they do not mince round in tiny numbers lending support to other troops. Abbadon is also the only being in the Galaxy to command an Astartes Legion and that is a significant factor. The Black Legion is not simply the Sons of Horus renamed that's just what the inquisition tells you (for reference see ADBs Talon of Horus) it is a true Legion comprised of Astartes from what were the other Traitor Legions and from its own recruitment (remember all that geneseed they got given in Storm of Iron) and outcasts from loyalist chapters. All these parts are not a loose alliance they are a true Legion held together by bonds of brotherhood as they were before the later stages of the Heresy.

    This is important because no on else has a Legion, the traitors have been broken in battle Like the Nightlords, broken by their own corruption as the emperors children are, fragmented due to internal power struggles as the Word Bearers have been or just been Kharn'd like the World Eaters. Loyalist wise Guilliman and his Codex has done for them. You see Chapters are pretty much the least efficient fighting force with tens (if not hundreds) of rear echelon workers just to keep each Space Marine fighting, unlike the Mobile infantry (see I said they'd come up) who were massively efficient "everyone fights!" Wasn't a threat it was practicality they had no rear echelon the cooks fought, the doctor fought and the mechanics fought. Now the Legions weren't quite that good but they were better than having whole different logistics set up for every 1000 troops.

    Chapters just don't have the cohesion between each other to create a force to counter Legion operation. It's been nearly 10000 years since the loyalists were split. Even Chapters with same geneseed are very disparate now. Just look at Uriel Ventris' reaction to the the Ultramarines successor chapter the Mortifactors in Warriors of Ultramar. We're a long way from what they managed at Tsanglusa.

    Force is most effectively applied to a small point. A legion can focus its efforts in a small point and break it. A 1000 chapters spread across the galaxy fighting fires can't. If we take the examples of Germany defeating France during The Second World War. France and her allies had plenty of tanks which possessed better armour and bigger guns than the Germans but they were spread across France and the Germans hit at a small point with all their force overwhelming the Allied armies who were only able to respond piecemeal resulting in one of the most stunning military victories of all time. That's exactly what Abaddon will do. His Black Legion will hit in a concentrated point scattering the Chapters before it and burning Terra from history. Even better he has the remnants of the of Traitor Legions which are entirely disposable and can be sent out to start fires all over the Galaxy without diminishing his primary force, fires which are going to require the loyalist chapters to respond to.

    The imperium Isn't going to be able to do what the Russia did at the siege of Stalingrad either. Abaddon isn't going to spread his force to conquer the whole Imperium he's just going to strike at it heart. He isn't going to being fighting symbolic battles over a wide front splitting his forces. He's going for the throat. Any second front is going to be open by him using (as mentioned before) his disposable allied Legion remnants which will split the forces opposed to him rather than doing it to his own primary force. Also the Imperium doesn't have allies that will be continually providing resources like the UK and US did for Russia. In fact from what we know of the Cabal the alien races opposed to Chaos actually want the Imperium to fall to Chaos and burn out taking most of the worshippers of the ruinous powers with it.

    So we are talking about Legion Warfare something that cannot be countered by anything thing other than by other Legions. If it weren't for the Hersey the Legions would have used this to scour Alien life from the Galaxy. Don't be trying the "but the Tyrannids" rubbish they have trouble dealing with a chapter let alone a Legion. The only commander the Imperium has, that has any grasp of this style of warfare is Bjorn. Abaddon has hundreds of commanders who were present during the greatest battles the Gallaxy had even seen, the Isstvan campaign, the Dropsite Massacres and the Siege of Terra. The imperium just doesn't possess the tactical or strategic know how to counter it.

    Abaddon is no frothing Lunatic he knows where Horus went wrong and that was when he let the bonds of brotherhood slip and so lost control of the Legions during the siege of Terra. To paraphrase Talon of Horus the Black Legion is not a Legion to fight the Great Crusade but rather one to fight the Long War. He spent 12 other Black Crusades not merely losing he's been testing, gaining resources, experience and strategic advantage. They were never supposed to beat the Imperium they were the set up for the coup de grace.

    The Imperium has only one hope and that is to stop the Warmaster in space but that's not going to happen. Space Travel is dependent on the Warp and let's face it Abaddon has certain friends who can help with that. He could probably whip up a ruinstorm of his own and it'd be fairly easy this time it's not as if there's 250000 Ultramarines to deal with. If he needs to cause mass casualties he's got the Planet Killer and the activated Black Stone fortresses which can just start overloading stars.

    In conclusion what we are looking at is Abaddon is going to unleash a War that the Imperium has no way of fighting they lack the resources and talent to counter it. They're going to lose Terra and the Emperor. Of course what actually happens when the Emperor finally dies is open for debate the Imperium ain't going to be able to stop it happening.

    Of course if it still had Legions they'd be safe as houses. So it's probably all Guilliman's fault.
    Last edited by grimmas; 02-14-2016 at 07:16 AM.
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  2. #2

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    Space Travel is key, but consider that first the Renegade Astartes need to escape the Eye of Terror.

    By no means insurmountable, but it does mean the Imperium has a bottleneck, and a far larger fleet at its disposal (it seems much of the Chaos fleets are comprised of Raiders and other small destroyer class ship.

    The original Astartes could afford their way of war as they had near limitless resupply potential, for both men and materiel. And in the meantime, the Imperium's most important worlds have been heavily fortified for just such an attack, which can't be said of many planets during the crusade.

    Whilst Abaddon, much like Horus, has the overall initiative, the Imperium stills knows their departure point and their ultimate goal, and this time doesn't have to fight Mars at the same time.

    So for me, it's hard to see how Abaddon will replace losses on his way to Terra, whereas the Imperium has that in spades, not to mention entire fleets of archaic ship models in mothball. All it will take are two or three disastrous battles in terms of casualties, and Abaddon's fleet will begin to lose its critical mass.

    Then there's Terra itself. It has a repository of Geneseed from every Legion and Chapter there has ever been, and a few billion potential Space Marines.

    Who knows what stockpiles Mars holds in terms of equipment? We know the Renegades have to depend upon less advanced weapons and tanks etc. It could well be that Abaddon ha been hordeing the nicer kit from recent Renegades, but just how many would that be? It's comparatively rare for whole Chapters to turn, so it's not as if every contemporary betrayal has brought a full armoury with it.

    The Imperium has the option of bleeding an invasion force white. I'm not sure the same can be said for Chaos.
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  3. #3

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    I agree with Mr Mystery the Imperium will bottle neck the 13th crusade at the Cadian Gate.....this will buy them time. Abaddon will break through then his route will be slowed by having to take strongpoint after strongpoint. The Chapters and Imperial Navy will be able to attack the vast fleet and pick their battes. The smaller chaos forces will be drawn into wars of attrition where possible but largely ignored in prefernce to the defence of terra. Abaddon will break into the Sol system and have to fight the full force of the Segmentum Solar in a vast space battle.........then comes his Stalingrad at Terra itself. Meanwhile any strongpoints that have been bypassed will assist in the process of attacking Abaddons army from the rear and cutting supply. Straggling Imperial Forces will eventually build up and try and break through to relived Terra.

    Abaddon if he does not stirke fast enough will end up seiging terra and being attacked in orbit.....he will have a war on two fronts.

    It will all come down to the force he has remaining when he reaches orbit round Terra and how quickly he can break the Emperors palace.......Legion or not there are few citadels that will compare.........the fate of the 13th Crusade is far from certain.

  4. #4
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    The imperium doesn't have force concentration to force the war of attrition though. Granted it's has the potential to do so but isn't in the shape to do so at the moment. Abaddon is good to go the imperium needs to reorganise on a massive scale and that'll take them centuries to even get round to think about.

    The potential to create more Marines is no good they need more now and they need them in the same place. Also it takes decades to produce a full Space Marine and thats assuming the technology to produce marines on an industrial scale exists which is doubtful after 10000yrs. Again that also presumes that the Imperium can tie up the traitors in a war of attrition.

    Abaddon doesn't need to reduce every fortification the imperium has. He ha sis best buds with the entities who control the wrap he can just bypass them.
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  5. #5
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    Knowing his luck Abbadon will get to Terra and blow it up, causing the Emperor to instantly reincarnate, bring back the loyalist primarchs and drop kick him and the traitors back into the Eye.

  6. #6

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    Or he'll plough his fleet into a Hive Fleet fighting Orks
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  7. #7
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    Haha yeah sounds like the sort of thing that would happen

    Just to developer the war of attrition thing. That's what the last 10000yrs has been about. Far from bleeding the traitors white they've actually got stronger while the Impetium has become more fractured, riddled with superstition, weakened and beset on all sides by enemies. We're looking at the end game rather the opening of a war.
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  8. #8
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    Arguably the Imperium still has two, possibly 3 legions. The Black Templars are acknowledged as having far more marines than they're supposed to, but they're scattered all over the place on crusade, so as you said they may not be able to fight in the unified fashion required. On the other hand, they're coherent enough to learn in a hurry.

    The Dark Angels and Blood Angels are both split into multiple chapters but in many ways on a technicality. Dark Angels successors are noted to be extremely loyal to their progenitor chapter and also participate in the hunt for the Fallen. Given the secrecy this hunt takes place in, that says that the leadership of those chapters is in very close alliance to those on the Rock. Again, they have the coherence required.

    The Blood Angels have successors that are sometimes very different from them with unique fighting styles and preferences. However, when Baal was threatened every single successor chapter turned up to defend it, and fought as one. This was noted to seriously disturb the Inquisition because they fought as if they were a Legion, despite it being centuries since the Heresy. (The other reason it disturbed the Inquisition is because two of the chapters that turned up had been declared Heretic, and yet they joined in the fight and none of the others stopped them or batted an eyelid. As far as the Blood Angels were concerned if you haven't fallen to Chaos you're still brothers.)
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  9. #9

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    Space Wolves too.

    So far as I'm aware, there's no set number for a Great Company.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Mystery View Post
    Space Wolves too.

    So far as I'm aware, there's no set number for a Great Company.
    True, but given they only split once I thought the Space Wolves were on the small side for a Legion. So even combined they may not have the sheer weight of bodies required.
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