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  1. #41

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    Very slight tangent.....is there any record of how the Daemon Primarchs feel about Abaddon?

    I know that post-Terra, the Sons of Horus took a right pasting from their fellow traitors - and that played a large part in Abaddon founding the Black Legion. He too was disappointed in Horus' failure.

    Because that's quite a large consideration as to how successful any attack on Terra would be.
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  2. #42
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    They work for him.

    It's mentioned that he a bested them all (but it isn't detailed how) and they have sworn fealty to him. In essence they're his *****es. I doubt they're very happy about it but let's face it they were never happy about anything. It is noted that they are only limited help in the long war though as they are tied very much to whims of their patrons rather than to their own desires. They're also daemons which also limits their usefulness in real space hence the Dark Gods need for Abaddon.

    They're unwilling servants but judging by Angron's appearance in The Emperor's Gift far more powerful than they were in life, their influence is limited by being warp entities but trey are servants none the less.

    Abaddon very much gets over his daddy issues in Talon of Horus but that's just to big a spoiler for me to divulge here.

    Edit: Or rather that was the case Codex Black Legion claims they are actually quite chummy with him (with the exception of Magnus who is sulking) and they have all rewarded him in various ways to assist his 13th Black Crusade.
    Last edited by grimmas; 02-19-2016 at 08:28 AM.
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  3. #43

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    "Don't mind me, I'm only the Tyrant of Badab and control enough Astartes/Space Marines to rival a legion..."
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  4. #44
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    Ahh yes but is he going to defend Terra from the Black Legion and even though his rules claim he is a veteran of The Long War he very much isn't. Its also unlikely he has a legions worth, sizeable as his forces are.
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  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by grimmas View Post
    They work for him.

    It's mentioned that he a bested them all (but it isn't detailed how) and they have sworn fealty to him. In essence they're his *****es. I doubt they're very happy about it but let's face it they were never happy about anything. It is noted that they are only limited help in the long war though as they are tied very much to whims of their patrons rather than to their own desires. They're also daemons which also limits their usefulness in real space hence the Dark Gods need for Abaddon.

    They're unwilling servants but judging by Angron's appearance in The Emperor's Gift far more powerful than they were in life, their influence is limited by being warp entities but trey are servants none the less.

    Abaddon very much gets over his daddy issues in Talon of Horus but that's just to big a spoiler for me to divulge here.

    Edit: Or rather that was the case Codex Black Legion claims they are actually quite chummy with him (with the exception of Magnus who is sulking) and they have all rewarded him in various ways to assist his 13th Black Crusade.
    Hmm IIRC I one of the BL books, it was either Storm of Iron or one of the Night Lords novels, it was pretty much the other way around. It is mentioned in passing that Abaddon beseeched each of the daemon primarchs for their support in the 13th black crusade(except Magnus who refused to even see him).

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuclearfeet View Post
    Hmm IIRC I one of the BL books, it was either Storm of Iron or one of the Night Lords novels, it was pretty much the other way around. It is mentioned in passing that Abaddon beseeched each of the daemon primarchs for their support in the 13th black crusade(except Magnus who refused to even see him).
    Yeah it is different dependent on the source. The end result is the same though the Daemon Primarchs are on board.
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  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotthammer View Post
    Knowing his luck Abbadon will get to Terra and blow it up, causing the Emperor to instantly reincarnate, bring back the loyalist primarchs and drop kick him and the traitors back into the Eye.

    .....creating Sigamrines?

    I'll let myself out.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmaximum View Post
    .....creating Sigamrines?

    I'll let myself out.
    ................

    You should feel bad for that.
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  9. #49
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    Grimmas

    Good topic, well argued - doctrinally. The only part I don't get... is why the factors which have seen him defeated in Episodes 1-12 of the Black Crusade, don't apply here. After all, he had the Black Legion then. I don't know if Black Library has changed up the fluff, but I'm not aware his preparation/concentration - is better for number 13.

    It may be that the Imperium is more distracted - but Cadia is sort of tailor made as a choke point - if Abbadon has been increasing his ability to deliver offensive effect, sure as sure the Cadian gate has been increasing its defences.

    Further, the ability of a legion to fight as a legion - with all the advantages you describe so well - it has to get planetside. I don't think Legionnaire ship masters are any better per se than fully implanted humans - some of the description of Imp Navy Captains almost make them seem as built in their command thrones as a Dune Guild Navigator in his tank. I think the Imp Navy is a massive show stopper even before he gets on the ground.

    Finally, planning wise, it would seem that Chapters within HH legions had different styles and expertise, and these were brought under Legion command. Whilst there is undoubted benefits to unified command of a formed unit, there is no reason why the superhuman minds of marines wouldn't be nearly as efficient when sevaral disparate chapters operate under 1 commander - Grimnar or Dante come to mind - the doctrine they use are not unknown to each other and any how, I expect they practise mission command - tell me what objective to take, not how to. So to some extent the chapter's expertise is irrelevant - because a strategic genius like Dante or Grimnar would not use Raven Guard to defend when he has Imperial Fists.
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  10. #50
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    Glad you enjoyed it Denzark

    There has been a bit of a development on the previous Black Crusades. The idea that Abaddon was defeated is from the imperial perspective and in reality they were never supposed to defeat the imperium but rather specific campaigns designed to lead up to the 13th which will be the finishing blow. Also he never had as powerful a force as he does now. The Black Legion is at its strongest and all the other Legions swear fealty to him so he is in a much more powerful position. Likewise as you mention the Imprium has never been as weak. They are under threat for more than ever before, Tau, Tyranids and Necrons weren't even active in the Galaxy for most of the previous Black Crusades for example.

    Yep the fleet is the Imperium's best chance but I see it that Abaddon has the juice with the warp to shut it down to imperial forces severely hampering them. Yep Cadia is an issue but he did manage to bypass it to wage the Gothic War I'm sure he can mange it again. He also has the Planet Killer and activated Blackstone fortresses which add massive planet/system destroying power. Also he intends to use the slaughter at Cadia as a mass Sacrifice to enlarge the Eye to provide a massive amount of Daemons to aid his cause. And destroy the pylons to allow this to happen. I also keep forgetting that he has launched the 13th and destroyed the most of the Cadian systems within hours and has the planet surrounded (Black Legion codex)

    I'd agree that Grimnar or Dante would be able to adapt its just that Abaddon and his Lieutenants will be better at it. Also if Abaddon unleaded the Legion style war I envisage it will be a type of war Dante et al have never experienced which will leave them trying to react and adapt by which time it'll be too late.


    Of course this would all be mute if the imperium still had a military like it did during the crusade (even one half the size) but then again it would all be mute because they'd have scoured the galaxy of all their enemies. But they won't do it because they are following the codex.
    Last edited by grimmas; 03-29-2016 at 02:59 PM.
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