Abaddon is going to Win (and it's all Guilliman's fault)

[Mr Mystery]

They make it up for it in being completely hatstand

[grimmas]

All far too small for legion strength and although they do come together for specific goals they are still distinct individual units working together rather than a whole.

The Black Templars are probably the most similar in terms of organisation but the upper estimate of their numbers is what, 5000?

And the Dark Angels are traitor anyway 😝

[Mr Mystery]

Belakor is also working against Abaddon, mucking about with potential lieutenants and stuff.

In short, the trouble with Chaos, is that it's Chaos. Abaddon may have the favour of the four brothers, but each wants ultimate victory for themselves.

[grimmas]

Very true. Of course that is why Abaddon remains mortal because as soon as he ascends he'll be fighting the God's agenda, like the deamon Primarchs (who swear fealty to him not the other way round), rather than his own.

[Haighus]

The Space Wolves have no set size, but Grimnar's company is supposed to be the largest, and he has just over 200 Marines in the supplement released a couple of years ago, so the whole Chapter is likely to be about 2000 Marines (I think Ragnar's company is ~150 Marines). So it is a considerable force, but small for a Legion. Of course, as Mystery states, they are utterly crazy and seem to have fended off the Thousand Sons several times with a single company.

The Imperial Fists are also noted as being very close to many of their successors (including the Black Templars), so they would likely be able to form a coherent force of several thousand Marines also. Imperial Fists are probably also the loyalists that Abaddon least wants on the walls of Terra... Not to mention they have the Phalanx, which is still the largest ship ever wielded by the Imperium, and survived both the Horus Heresy and the War of the Beast.

You mention the fact that the Chapters will not fight together effectively as one, as the Legions did, but even in the Great Crusade, the Legions were divided into smaller units, which had a high degree of autonomy in many cases, and also often had quite distinct cultures. That is what made splitting the Loyalist Legions into Chapters relatively easy- there were subdivisions already. The biggest issue would be determining who is in command. Evidence from situations in which large numbers of Marines were mobilised in the 41st Millennium suggests that Chapters do not fight well together, unless they have strong unified leadership. The Badab war is the best example of this- the loyal forces were having their ***** handed to them until reinforcements arrived, and the Red Scorpions took overall control. Once the Scorpions took command, and everyone followed their orders, the situation improved massively and put the renegades on the back foot, and ultimately defeated them. The same is true of Armageddon- the Black Templars had overall command, so the Marine forces were effective.

It is also true that Marines are not the only candidates for overall command. There are many human officers who have commanded hundreds of thousands of men, and would have the experience to deal with such logistical issues- they would be able to assist in commanding a force with thousands of Marines too.

I am also not sure where you are coming from as regards logistics- the Chapters being largely self-sufficient in their logistical supply is a benefit, not a detriment. Fleet Chapters especially are completely mobile and self sufficient. This is also no different to the forces of the Great Crusade- many units were very self sufficient, because they did not have good supply lines to the frontiers of the Imperium; most of the Legions had supplies coming from very centralised locations though, and had much weaker supply situations in the Heresy than the Chapters would have. In addition, whilst Marines do have extensive numbers of serfs supporting their efforts, they are also capable of operations for months without support too. As others have said, Abaddon cannot really afford to enter a war of attrition- he would be aiming for the decapitation strike, so it is unlikely that defending Marines would be pushed right to the limits of their logistics, and would be able to cope without serfs for the campaign.

Finally, you state that no force can resist an Astartes Legion, except another Legion. But there are examples in the Horus Heresy where predominantly non-Astartes forces defeat Legion forces, most notably Tallarn, where the main bulk of the Iron Warriors and their Primarch are defeated by massed forces of the Imperial Army and driven away from the planet without achieving their objectives. This is during a time where the idea of having to fight Astartes was until very recently thought to be ludicrous too, so very few had planned for it. The IoM is now more experienced in such matters, and has entire Inquisitorial Ordos dedicated to that purpose.

[Storm96]

Lets not forget the Salamanders have no successor chapters. Who knows how many they have after 10,000 years of rebuilding. There's mention of chapters being on the brink of extinction and needing a century or more to replenish. Imagine how many little green lizards have been hatched in 10 centuries. Yes I know current fluff says they only have 7 companies but if you really believe that then I have some land in Florida that perfect for building on. Great price and not in a swamp I swear! Personally I can't wait to see the payback for Istvaan. When it comes....whoo boy. There's not an eye nor any other orifice of the warp that Abbaddon is gonna be able to run away through.

[Mr Mystery]

Very true. Of course that is why Abaddon remains mortal because as soon as he ascends he'll be fighting the God's agenda, like the deamon Primarchs (who swear fealty to him not the other way round), rather than his own.

From the advent bumph about Belakor, it seems Belakor is the reason Abaddon, Horus and Archaon will never ascend.

Belakor was the first Daemon Prince, raised up by all four. Trouble was, none of them could control him. Whatever he wanted to do, would benefit at least one of the gods, at the cost of other(s). As long as one saw advantage in his shenanigans, the others couldn't prevent it.

I love that Warscroll thing. He's a total dick, and loving it because literally no force can ever truly stop him.

And how much power can they pour into Abaddon when they are reluctant, or plain completely unwilling to give him ascension (not that there's anything to suggest that's his goal). When Horus fought the Emperor, it was only their blessings that made it anywhere near an even match.

Horus of course was a Primarch, with a Primarch's physiology. Abaddon is 'just' an Astartes. Pour too much in, and we know what happens. Your main dude just became your main gribbly, mindless sac of tentacles and testicles.... Given there's at least the outside prospect of a loyalist Primarch coming back and getting their Ming on, let alone Mr Emperor Sir M'Lord (to give him his full name), it seems Abaddon is gonna need some serious Chaos Jungle Juice (not to mention all those Titans stomping about, because accidents and little splutchy pancakes do happen!) not to find out just what it's like to have the average life expectancy of a Guardsman, or worse, Chaos Cultist.

Me? I'd absolutely love to see 40k End Times, but done ala Forgeworld's Heresy series, so it's not a case of 'got bored, nuked setting'. Though it seems we're shifting from One Minute To Midnight to at least Fifty Nine Seconds To Midnight in the new campaign books (which I for one welcome, because if End Times and AoS, and indeed The Force Awakens has shown me, is that not knowing what's going to happen, or has happened, totes awakens my inner child)

Oh, and I'd pay good money to see Russ turn up and do to Abaddon what Hulk did to Loki, except finishing the job

[grimmas]

The fact remains any talk of reconstitution of loyalist legions is that it's is totally notional none of the forces people mention exist. What does exist is a large number of independent chapters spread over the entire galaxy. Of courses it's even worse than that as each of these chapters is actually broken down to in many cases individual companies and small which are intern scattered everywhere fight there own battles. The forming of legion style formations is against the tenants of the Codex Astartes and as such would be viewed as an act of rebellion if not ordered by the high lords of terra and they haven't.

It doesn't matter what they could do at some notional point in the future. Abaddon is ready now. The imperial forces will need time to assemble time they don't have especially when you consider that they first need to communicate the need, trough the wrap, and then assemble from a great many different points of a great distance, through the warp. Who controls the warp? They've got a problem. It doesn't matter how good the Imperial Fists are at defending or how big the Phalanx is if they're stuck In the Damocles gulf by a warpstorm. They don't sit around on Terra they move around the Galaxy. Which is also part of the issue the imperium can't afford to have a large enough force of Marines sitting around waiting for Abaddon they've got Tau, Nids, Orks, Eldar and Necrons to fight.

A chapter is only self sufficient from its point of origin. If they aren't a space bound chapter that leaves them tied to a planet in another part of the Galaxy not very helpful when trying to fight a war elsewhere. Chapters also aren't necessarily self sufficient there's plenty of mention of chapters who lack the supplies to even survive. Chapters do not have a commonality of supply each looks after their own that is not efficient. It pretty handy if you're fighting a guerrilla style war or roaming around providing assistance to others it's not so when fighting a full scale war. Also it's not just about supplies it's also about troops and getting them where they need to be at the right time. That'll be next to impossible when you've every 1000 troops basically doing their own thing. The second founding was about limiting the power of Space Marines not increasing it.

At the third war of Armageddon Helbrecht had less then 20000 marines under his command across the whole campaign. The battles we're talking about will have 5-10 times that many just in individual battles. The greatest battles of the Heresy had at least 20- 30 times that number. Abaddon wasn't in charge but at least he was there in a command position. With imperial forces it's hardly an absolute thing it's all about pacts, alliances and honour. The Dark Angels are likely to bugger off on their own agenda at the drop of a hat (much as they did during the Heresy) for example. Human officers don't command Space Marines they can petition them for help but that's about all. Even Macharius Solar only had that.

The Iron warriors weren't defeated by force of arms they were put back in their box by Horus after he found out that the whole thing was a power grab. The Unification Wars, Great Crusade and Horus Heresy are evidence of how Astartes (and their prototypes) are really the only force capable of securing the Galaxy.

Again the war of attrition has been going on for nearly 10000 yrs and the Imperium is losing it. Abaddons 13th Crusade is going to the finishing move of that War not a continuation of it. It's the move that breaks the stalemate. It's not going to be a drawn out fight over all fronts it's going to be a concentrated push through to the ultimate objective. Remember he isn't trying to conquer the Imperium he is trying to kill the emperor.

Abaddon doesn't need to fight Russ( if he's still alive) he's got Angron for that and he's done Russ before. Of course there might be some more of the Daemon Primarchs who want a piece of Russ.

The Salamanders are an example of how far the Imperium has fallen. Without the Galaxy wide recruitment of the Great Crusade they've been unable to even maintain Chapter numbers let alone recover Legion strength.

There's also a big difference between individual Expedition fleets gaining common experience from fighting campaigns together for a couple of decades and Chapter's developing totally different cultures over thousands of years.

[Mr Mystery]

A lot of it is also based on Knowns.

Would anyone put it past the High Lords to have been secretly siphoning off tithed Geneseed and holding any number of Marines in stasis somewhere.

[grimmas]

A lot of it is also based on Knowns.

Would anyone put it past the High Lords to have been secretly siphoning off tithed Geneseed and holding any number of Marines in stasis somewhere.

Well knowns is all we've got go on. The High Lords may be up to all sort of stuff but then they might not be. It all part of the fun. Also someone might have read something we've missed and it'll and a new perspective