Heavy stubbers.

[Charon]

there is no reason at all why a guard army wouldn't be equipped with heavy stubbers.

It is basically the same reason why our army are not using Bows, Flintlock Pistols or Hand Cannons anymore. They have better weapons. You will maybe still see some of them occasionally, but not as a staple.
And as heavy bolters are available to the Guard and are obviously easily mass produced, there is no need to issue Stubbers. You may find them on the black market or in some PDF armories (as you can find older and cheaper weapons in the hands of militias nowadays) but the Imperial guard as such does not have much use for it.
You may find some regiments who do still use them but as long as there is no more "doctrines" for Imperial guard, they go with the most average armory.

When the heavy stubber is the "to go" weapon for underfunded traitor guard and civillian cultist mobs, why should the Guard fall back to its use over the Heavy bolter?

[Haighus]

It is basically the same reason why our army are not using Bows, Flintlock Pistols or Hand Cannons anymore. They have better weapons. You will maybe still see some of them occasionally, but not as a staple.
And as heavy bolters are available to the Guard and are obviously easily mass produced, there is no need to issue Stubbers. You may find them on the black market or in some PDF armories (as you can find older and cheaper weapons in the hands of militias nowadays) but the Imperial guard as such does not have much use for it.
You may find some regiments who do still use them but as long as there is no more "doctrines" for Imperial guard, they go with the most average armory.

When the heavy stubber is the "to go" weapon for underfunded traitor guard and civillian cultist mobs, why should the Guard fall back to its use over the Heavy bolter?

I agree with your reasoning overall, but I don't think it fits the situation here: the heavy stubber fills a niche that isn't filled by the heavy bolter, which is a heavy weapon requiring 2 soldiers to handle. Heavy stubbers are capable of being wielded by a lone soldier. Renegade militia do often wield the heavy stubber in a team, presumably to increase the ammo capacity, but most instances of its use is as a one man weapon. This would allow it to combo with a heavy bolter in a squad.

The Guard and the Death Korps in particular do make widespread use of the heavy stubber anyway. DKoK are also particularly well equipped Regiments, having access to some rare equipment such as mole-launchers and Macharius super-heavy tanks, yet they still use the heavy stubber. It shows that the stubber isn't just considered a low-tech weapon suitable only for PDFs and militias, but an effective military tool. It just seems odd that Leman Russes and DKoK Grenadiers use them, but not Infantry squads who would get more use from the weapon.

(I appreciate that in rules terms, there is no functional difference between a heavy bolter and a heavy stubber, as both are heavy weapons, but in background terms, stubbers are far more portable).

[Kirsten]

exactly, the heavy stubber is different. why do some guard field krakk missile launchers instead of lascannons? because they are different. why do they have melta guns and not just multi meltas? different roles. with such a diverse armoury available, you can't really say that the heavy stubber is not to be used by guard.

[Ben_S]

the heavy stubber fills a niche that isn't filled by the heavy bolter, which is a heavy weapon requiring 2 soldiers to handle. Heavy stubbers are capable of being wielded by a lone soldier. Renegade militia do often wield the heavy stubber in a team, presumably to increase the ammo capacity, but most instances of its use is as a one man weapon. This would allow it to combo with a heavy bolter in a squad.

It doesn't take two men to handle a heavy bolter either. IG use two-men weapon teams (one firing the weapon, one a spotter/loader) as a matter of their training, not because it's necessary - which is why one can continue to use the weapon after his comrade is killed.

So, if IG infantry were allowed heavy stubbers, then I'd expect it to be in place of a heavy bolter (etc) as part of a two-man weapon team, not as a special weapon. And, if that were the case, there wouldn't really be any advantage over a heavy bolter.

[Haighus]

It doesn't take two men to handle a heavy bolter either. IG use two-men weapon teams (one firing the weapon, one a spotter/loader) as a matter of their training, not because it's necessary - which is why one can continue to use the weapon after his comrade is killed.

So, if IG infantry were allowed heavy stubbers, then I'd expect it to be in place of a heavy bolter (etc) as part of a two-man weapon team, not as a special weapon. And, if that were the case, there wouldn't really be any advantage over a heavy bolter.

With the heavy weapon teams, the implication is that the second soldier is needed for the weapon to be effective- the game simplifies this by ignoring it when a weapons team takes a wound, but the background has this as the second soldier being necessary to carry the weighty ammunition whilst the first soldier struggles with the weapon itself- a heavy bolter is the size of a Guardsman. The only IG soldier considered capable of hefting a heavy bolter alone is Sergeant Harker, and he is supposed to be a strong as a Space Marine.

On the other hand, plenty of soldiers are shown as being capable of wielding a heavy stubber single-handedly, and the only Imperial example wielding a heavy stubber does so too (there are Imperial twin-linked heavy stubber weapons teams). Although FW has provided the only example of both an Imperial wielding a heavy stubber, and the only heavy stubber weapons team in use (and most uses of heavy stubbers full stop frankly), so it is unclear which would be used, but more often than not, heavy stubbers are individual weapons.


^This is much less cumbersome than this:

In game terms, if they did choose to make heavy stubbers a weapon team, as the renegade stubber team, then they would just be a cheaper, worse heavy bolter. If they make them a special weapon, then they become a complement to a heavy bolter potentially.

[Charon]

With the heavy weapon teams, the implication is that the second soldier is needed for the weapon to be effective- the game simplifies this by ignoring it, but the background has this as the second soldier being necessary to carry the weighty ammunition whilst the first soldier struggles with the weapon itself- a heavy bolter is the size of a Guardsman. The only IG soldier considered capable of hefting a heavy bolter alone is Sergeant Harker, and he is supposed to be a strong as a Space Marine.

This is contradicted in most novels. The heavy bolter is basically always used by a "big strong solider". Other weapons are rerely mentioned with the exception of Missile Launchers where a "loader" seems to be required.

exactly, the heavy stubber is different. why do some guard field krakk missile launchers instead of lascannons? because they are different. why do they have melta guns and not just multi meltas? different roles. with such a diverse armoury available, you can't really say that the heavy stubber is not to be used by guard.

Can you please point out the niche the heavy stubber on infantry fills that the heavy bolter (with better S, range and AP while keeping the same amount of shots) does not cover?
A Missil Launcher is DIFFERENT to a lascannon because it can also fire frag (and in many cases also AA), which the lascannon is incapabe of.
The melta gun is DIFFERENT from the multi mela because it is an assault weapon unlike the multi melta.

[Haighus]

This is contradicted in most novels. The heavy bolter is basically always used by a "big strong solider". Other weapons are rerely mentioned with the exception of Missile Launchers where a "loader" seems to be required.

I can think of Bragg? Who is an equivalent character to Harker and is noted as being unusual in his ability to wield a heavy bolter or autocannon alone.

Can you please point out the niche the heavy stubber on infantry fills that the heavy bolter (with better S, range and AP while keeping the same amount of shots) does not cover?
A Missil Launcher is DIFFERENT to a lascannon because it can also fire frag (and in many cases also AA), which the lascannon is incapabe of.
The melta gun is DIFFERENT from the multi mela because it is an assault weapon unlike the multi melta.

In the novels and background, the heavy stubber is essentially an easily portable fire-support weapon, like a SAW in modern day squads, as opposed to the heavier HMG of the heavy bolter. This isn't reflected in it's current rules as a heavy weapon, but in background it seems like it would be better suited as a salvo weapon. Unfortunately the stubber has been a heavy weapon since prior to salvo weapons being around, so is unlikely to change now. If you want to consider why the heavy stubber is different to the heavy bolter, why are heavy bolters not attached to the cupolas of Leman Russ and Chimeras? The heavy stubber is equivalent to a storm bolter in that regard.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I really like the idea of Heavy Stubbers, but sadly 40K doesn't represent suppressing fire very well if at all, (though they'd make a nice candidate for the Suppressing Fire order, actually. I like the idea of a Heavy Weapons Squad lighting up a street.)

They're also really weak and basically have an irrelevant AP. I find Heavy Bolters to be kinda worthless as it is, and Heavy Stubbers are worse in almost every way. Doesn't help that there's a 5pt tax per base on Heavy Weapons Squads for no real reason.

I'd really like them as a Special or Heavy Weapon, though, because I have a Kill Team of Savlar Chem Dogs who I've fluffed as Hive Gangers and released criminals thrown together into a gang and set loose on underhive threats. They fight with what they can steal or recruit, so I've got newbies as Conscripts, with an inner circle of Veterans. I have Autocannon/Heavy Bolter weapons teams as well, but I'd prefer Heavy Stubbers as they fit the feel more, (everyone has Autoguns of a variety of types, though a few have stolen/looted Lasguns.)

Multi-Lasers would be a fun Heavy Weapon as well.

[Charistoph]

While writing up a fandex of a kind of Humanity that was separated from the Imperium for a time, I was setting up one of the Troop Squads so that they only had Special Weapons, but they needed a volume of fire weapon like a SAW. Around that time, I saw a Military Channel show about weapons being developed which included a rifle which could be set up like an assault rifle, or reconfigured in a few seconds to be a SAW.

Thinking on that, I made up this little guy:
Light Stubber, Range: 36", Str: 3, AP: -, Type: Salvo 2/5.

This provides a high volume of fire when the shooter has a chance to set up, doesn't minimize his firepower too much on the run, the low Str keeps the 5 shots from being obnoxiously overpowered, while the 5 shots provide the volume for the Str 3 to actually do something.

Too bad I don't think we'll see its like.

[Haighus]

While writing up a fandex of a kind of Humanity that was separated from the Imperium for a time, I was setting up one of the Troop Squads so that they only had Special Weapons, but they needed a volume of fire weapon like a SAW. Around that time, I saw a Military Channel show about weapons being developed which included a rifle which could be set up like an assault rifle, or reconfigured in a few seconds to be a SAW.

Thinking on that, I made up this little guy:
Light Stubber, Range: 36", Str: 3, AP: -, Type: Salvo 2/5.

This provides a high volume of fire when the shooter has a chance to set up, doesn't minimize his firepower too much on the run, the low Str keeps the 5 shots from being obnoxiously overpowered, while the 5 shots provide the volume for the Str 3 to actually do something.

Too bad I don't think we'll see its like.

The rotor cannon in 30k has near identical stats, and is a very similar weapon Range: 30", Str: 3, Ap: 6, Salvo 3/4. It is described as a multi-barrelled stubber.