The much Maligned Lasgun

[grimmas]

Makes sense. The Imperium is a particularly stupid, bureaucratic and unfeeling organisation none more so than the munitorium

[Jewelfox]

Re: Lasguns severing limbs, I don't think that's something that a laser with an AK-47's stopping power could feasibly do? Because it's not a ballistic weapon; there's no kinetic energy or physical impact, it won't knock things back or blast them to pieces. It gives things a nasty burn very quickly. There'd be a puff of smoke and a charred target, like in the original V miniseries IIRC, but they might actually fall forward after being shot.

Tau pulse and Imperial plasma, on the other hand, might have a kinetic "jolt" to their impacts, if only because of the magnetic sheath around the superheated charge.

(Someone on page 2 brought up the possibility that lasguns actually do fire physical shots of some kind, despite the name. I believe this is how the Star Wars fan community resolved the issue.)

Re: Bolters being used against tanks, not really? Not unless it's something weak like a Rhino, and then you'd be more likely to immobilize it via causing treads to dislodge. Explosive rounds are kind of crap against modern main battle tanks, and are better used against light armour (i.e. METAL BAWKSES without composite plating) or buildings and infantry formations. Which is actually reflected pretty well in-game, with their S4 / AP5 and with glances and stuff.

(I like the "weapon of terror" aspect, it reminds me of Stargate SG-1 something fierce.)

Finally, not to rain on anyone's parade ... but given the average IG soldier's life expectancy, wouldn't it have been better to give them something with fewer rounds and less reliability but more stopping power? o_O Just something that occurred to me while reading this ...

[Haighus]

I believe the small explosion caused by a lasgun shot is due to the laser heating up the affected flesh quickly enough to cause the water and blood and flesh to vapourise and explode outward. I think this is also why they have poor penetration (their biggest weakness), because they dissipate their energy into the first layer hit. I think this is the key difference to a .50 round- the .50 can go through a wall, a lasgun would just blast the wall a bit. In terms of stopping power, there is a rather nice quote from HH book 5: Tempest to cover this:

The metric for such personal arms was the Mars-Tellurian pattern Mk II-III lascarbine- having a registered mortality rate of 70% when striking an unarmoured human in the central body mass with a single strength discharge in optimum firing conditions, and mounting a rechargeable liquid metal core magazine able to fire eighty discharges before reloading was needed.

This is the most standard definition of how effective a lascarbine should be.

Their only other weakness would be that their range is limited by environmental conditions- firing through smoke would reduce the range, although theoretically firing through the vacuum of space would mean near infinite range.

Re: boltgun rounds- they are not just explosive, they are designed to explode after penetration, so they would be pretty nasty against soft-skinned and lightly armoured vehicles as they could explode just under the armour plating.

- - - Updated - - -

Finally, not to rain on anyone's parade ... but given the average IG soldier's life expectancy, wouldn't it have been better to give them something with fewer rounds and less reliability but more stopping power? o_O Just something that occurred to me while reading this ...

The weapons are fully auto with no recoil, aside from perhaps some shaking with repeated discharge. Maybe have some beefy capacitors in them or something. I don't know how fast the weapons cycle, but they likely can fire off their magazine in a pretty short amount of time... Not to mention that for every 10, 20, 100 Guardspeople who die running off the dropship ramp, there is one who will become a vet and that reliability will come in real handy then. Also good for more banal tasks like crushing riots and insurgencies and small uprisings and other 'minor' threats compared to an Ork horde or a Dark Eldar raid.

[Jewelfox]

Good point about the environmental conditions!

Re: boltgun rounds- they are not just explosive, they are designed to explode after penetration, so they would be pretty nasty against soft-skinned and lightly armoured vehicles as they could explode just under the armour plating.

Well yeah, that's how a HEAT (High-Explosive Anti-Tank) shell works. And yeah, they're really only good against light armour, since that's about all they can penetrate. Thanks for the reminder, I kind of forgot that part.

EDIT: Now I'm wondering if the "smoke reduces range" thing could be used to Forge The Narrative as like a weapon-specific special rule or something. >_>; A handicap on the IG, to put them in some kind of Aliens-style situation.

[Haighus]

Good point about the environmental conditions!



Well yeah, that's how a HEAT (High-Explosive Anti-Tank) shell works. And yeah, they're really only good against light armour, since that's about all they can penetrate. Thanks for the reminder, I kind of forgot that part.

EDIT: Now I'm wondering if the "smoke reduces range" thing could be used to Forge The Narrative as like a weapon-specific special rule or something. >_>; A handicap on the IG, to put them in some kind of Aliens-style situation.

HEAT rounds will penetrate thick armour if it is simple steel armour though- just look at the effect of panzerfaust rounds on Soviet tanks in WWII. They are pretty useless against modern tank armour compounds such as Dorchester block though, as these have been designed specifically to block HEAT rounds, mainly due to just how effective HEAT rounds are against steel plate.

Hmmm that could make for a cool scenario, although Guardsmen are pretty weak in the setting as is, I'm not sure if they need more of a handicap against things like Genestealers, if you were to make an Aliens-style mission in corridors and stuff...

[grimmas]

The .50 comparison was more the damage it caused to flesh particularly the limb severing bit. Lasguns do lack penetration. The damage they cause is probably quite different to a conventional round. There will still be the permanent cavity as the beam travels through but there will be a secondary permanent area of burn injury casused by the heat of the beam (which wouldn't happen with a bullet) but no bleeding.

The Milita minimum standard is just that though a minimum standard, 70% fatalities from a single shot is quite high though (does depend on where in the centre torso one is hit),the Guards does by and large possess better weapons than that (150shots per battery being the current average). Still it is a great bit of info. The Milita list is probably the best way of representing the real variation of the Guard.

Standard bolt rounds are not heat though they are Standard (well with 41M giggery pokery) HE AP with a hardened tip. The penetration is from the Kenetic impact rather than the explosive which come into play after penetration. Much like AP rounds in Tank and Naval guns during the start of WWII.

[Jewelfox]

This thread has been really educational for me!

Re: a scenario, maybe these are like "main character" IG veterans who've been chased into (or are pursuing things into) an underground complex? And have been subject to protracted fighting already, and are running low on ammo.

You could have things like a hazy mist over the ground layer, intermittent steam vents that deal damage and act as hard cover against lasguns, fires that give you a handful more rounds for your hotshot weapon if you end your turn next to them ... or instead of keeping track of ammo just say you run out on a To-Hit of 1, and can replenish your stock at a fire. Or maybe you have infinite normal shots, but the fires let you overcharge and do a hotshot blast in the next Shooting phase.

It'd be like Deathwatch meets Aliens. ^^;

EDIT: Ooh, what if you could draw LOS from a reflective surface in view?

[Mr Mystery]

Presumably the Lasbolt would be too high a temperature for reflection. Rather than just bouncing off the mirror, it would melt it, so if there was any reflection, it would be robbed of it's potency.

[grimmas]

Presumably the Lasbolt would be too high a temperature for reflection. Rather than just bouncing off the mirror, it would melt it, so if there was any reflection, it would be robbed of it's potency.

Don't some of the RPGs have reflective upgrades for armour to increase their effectiveness against laser/energy weapons?

[Mr Mystery]

No idea. But it also requires that there's no kinetic element to the shot, or any other disruption effect.

With Lasrounds being as hot as they are, would it not be feasible for the beam to at least partially melt the reflective surface before impact? Serious question. I can't science, me.

And it's a good job I can't science. The things I would science!