Tech: Chaos>Imperium?

[Sitnam]

Same goes for tank without gasoline, bolters without magazines, lasguns without powerpacks, etc. I think daemonic engines are surely a sign of technological advancement. The warp energy is just their power source. Vraks 3 mentioned that many of the daemon engines were recent appearances, which implies that Chaos advances their technology just as the Imperium does.

I think the two sides are about even in technological advancement. Whereas the ignorance of the Imperium prevents great advancement, the fervent fanatiscm to their gods cause (Change, war, indulgence, or disease) limits them to making machines only for thos purposes. And the new Imperial Guard codex makes mention that many of the vehicles are recent additions to Imperial inventories. The Space Marines also have a history of adapting technology (Razorbacks and Land Raider Helios are good examples.)

[Nabterayl]

To get back to the OP's point, I don't think Chaos worship really takes off the critical blinkers that get in the way of technological research. The critical research bottleneck in the 41st millennium (at least among humans and human-derived subspecies) is the belief that during the Dark Age of Technology mankind knew everything there is to know. That mistaken belief is the real problem. Technological research does take place, but the people who undertake it think that they're rediscovering knowledge that was already known once upon a time, and are obsessed with demonstrating that. This techno-archaeological worldview means that it simply wouldn't occur to most educated people to undertake serious research unless they have reason to believe that the object of that research was already once known.

Less educated people might stumble into a more modern viewpoint, but they're not the ones who are going to be doing any serious advancement. Imagine trying to build CERN in a world where every single person on the planet who even knew basic algebra, let alone calculus or high-level physics, was convinced that the very idea of CERN was an abomination because they had no evidence that CERN had ever been built in the past. It would be all well and good if some ignorant yokel who could barely do four-function arithmetic believed differently, but good luck leveraging the yokel's optimism into a functioning particle accelerator. That's essentially the state of research in the Imperium.

And the trouble with the Dark Mechanicus is that they don't really differ from the Adeptus Mechanicus on this crucial point of doctrine. Yes, they can do things that mankind didn't do in the Dark Age of Technology; they know things that mankind didn't know in the Dark Age of Technology. But they do, and know, blasphemous things. The DarkMech isn't sitting around in the Eye of Terror going, "Oh thank Tzeentch, now we know that knowledge is not finite and there never was any glorious past age where we knew everything there is to know." They're sitting around going, "We still think knowledge is finite, and we still think that once upon a time mankind knew everything there is to know, except for dark, Chaotic knowledge - thank Tzeentch we can delve into this one realm of knowledge that was previously unexplored."

Which is why pretty much every technological advancement that comes out of the Eye of Terror involves daemons or daemonic energy in some way. It's all that occurs to the DarkMech to even try.

[DarkLink]

Well, I guess our point is that if the admech suddenly started worshipping chaos, they'd get defilers too. It's adding a daemon to existing tech that makes a defiler, not inventing a new technology that suddenly has a daemon in it, really.

[Sitnam]

Well, I guess our point is that if the admech suddenly started worshipping chaos, they'd get defilers too. It's adding a daemon to existing tech that makes a defiler, not inventing a new technology that suddenly has a daemon in it, really.

But this is still technological advancement. They are crafting current technology and combining it with a alternative pilot/fuel system. They are adpanting and upgrading, which is jsut as important as inventing.

[Nabterayl]

You may be giving Defilers short shrift, DarkLink. Various Chaos researchers have certainly figured out how to do things that the Adeptus Mechanicus hasn't (the daemonculaba spring again to mind). It may be that even the mechanical parts of a Defiler are a technological advance. After all, when's the last time the Imperium fielded a walker that was (i) fleet, (ii) had two auxiliary weapons, (iii) had two DCCWs and (iv) had a battle cannon? However controlled and powered, that's an impressive piece of machinery.

[Fellend]

Yes but still not technological advancement, it's the same technology with added daemon. If i send let my tv become possessed it's not a new machine, it's just a possessed tv. Sure it can now turn itself on and off by it's own will and occasionally devour any future offspring which is all pretty cool new features, (not very useful perhaps but still)
This however doesn't make it into new technology, this just adds a function to an already existing piece of technology. The same as attaching a grenadelauncher to an assault rifle. If they had actually invented the grenade launcher (daemon) but they did not. They simply attached him.

The birthingchamber is a good example of chaos lacking research actually. we can't actually make space marines so we throw dead ones into daemonic birthing chambers with stolen geneseed and hope that they come out somewhat space mariney. Doesn't scream technological supremacy, it's more of a hotwiring solution.

Fabius Bile on the other hand is probably one of the few that has made technological advancements (or at least biochemical) but once again he fails as often as he succeedes, which is okay if you are chaos but would you really consider a machine that fails that often advancement?

oooh wait...I use windows... guess i defeated my own point.

[Nabterayl]

I think we may be using different definitions of "technological advancement." It's true that even very good Chaos tech is not better than what the Imperium has in every way. But it is interesting that, within the very narrow field of technology powered by psychic entities native to the Warp, genuine research seems to be taking place. The fact that the daemonculaba worked at all is pretty impressive, given that they were essentially in the prototype stage when Captain Ventris killed them.

[Xas]

well it depends on your fiew of things.

if the deviler is nothing "new" to you then there is absolutely NOTHING new in any of the races but maybe tau.

in my eyes the imperium does advance, albeit slowly with things like refitted baneblade chassis (so those forgeworlds that do NOT own a STC to the original cannon layout can also produce superheavy tanks. apparently the hull is not the problem but the cannons), the new landraiders (well just slap other guns tot he same chassi but if it works...) and new rhino chassi mounted weapons (razorback and whirlwind are both new since the heresy).

at the same time however chaos is further advanced by useing the immaterium to fuel and controll their machines. not calling that technical advancement is like saying eldar have no tech at all... why? because all their stuff is grown from phantom crystall and not forged like good old steel

[Fellend]

Well I think it's two different things.
Eldar technology is a piece of machinery that uses the eldars natural psychic ability to function of improves said ability
Whereas Chaos let's a living entity possess a unit. It's not really technology, it's just the Daemon taking the form of a tank or a bolter instead of a big fleshy thingy. After all there is no such thing as a "defiler" Each and every Defiler is a Daemon with it's own name. He's probably called Snargash the Mauler or something like it.

Basically, Daemon(technology) is just Daemons taking new and interesting shapes. No different from Possessed marines and we wouldn't call them technology.

[Old_Paladin]

I just have to say that the comment on taking two old technologies and having them work together doesn't make something new, is a completely ignorant worldview.

The steam engine is around twenty-five hundred years old, the wheel is older then that; however, when the two where eventually put together, no one said " *yawn* I don't know why people think this Train thingy is a great leap forward, the parts have been around for thousands of years."