40k Balance Meets Mephiston

[Judge]

That's the third point, yes.

The first is that the editions are not ostensibly compatible, at least insofar as melee is concerned. Please note the difference in performance between opponents from 3rd, 4th and 5th edition codexes. There's little point in taking 3rd edition codex melee units at all against a well configured 5th edition army.

The second point is that units with high initiative (7) and instant death weapons (Str 10 or rune weapon for instant killing - take your pick) have a competitive advantage against non-instant death causing units.

The body of comparison wasn't just there to show "haha this guy's tuff." This is why the initial post came with a Conclusions section.

As for the US housing market, when it went, the US economy took a round smack to the tush, which affected European markets as well. Welcome to a global economy.

[BuFFo]

There is so much wrong with this i have drawn a diagram for your benefit:





Situation A: you want to move your raider 12 inches straight forward. you pick a point on your tank (in this case the very front) you then measure twelve inches and then move said tank so that the same point (the front of the tank , is placed at the end of the tap measure or 12 inch mark depending on which way round your holding the measure)

Situation B: exactly the same except using a central point on the tank, you measure from this point and too this point.


Situation C: This is where you wish to pivot your tank. In this diagram i have included Situation A to show how you in-fact gain nothing by your technique of pivoting during the move and then returning to facing forward. heres a break down:

If you choose to pivot your raider, you lose two inches as your width is shorter than your length and you measure in the direction your traveling so from the side of the raider you move twelve forward then pivot back to facing forward re-gaining that two or so inches. so thats -2 (to start your move) +plus 12 during the move and then +2 from the pivot giving you a total of 12.

The same applies if you start your move say forward 6, then pivot, then sideways 6 then pivot again, because by pivoting you reduce the length of your vehicle.

You know what, it occurred to me that I was arguing the wrong thing when we were talking about Radiers and Pivot movement.

It took me a game I played yesterday to realize that I had my point of view wrong on this issue, but, what I mean is, I was actually correct that you can pivot a vehicle for further movement. I just had the situation wrong, and a situation you did not cover in your diagram.

I was saying that you pivot DURING your actual 12" movement, and I was retarded for saying so, because I never do this. I don't know why I even brought that up.

What I meant to say was this;

What you do is DEPLOY your Raiders sideways up against the Deployment Zone, and when it is time to move the Raider, you pivot FIRST, then you move 12". This way, you are not moving any further that 12" when you measure and move.

That is how Dark Eldar get the additional couple of inches to be able to get an average of 32" assault on turn 1.


This is what I said, and was wrong when saying so

Move 12 with raider and have it's final position be sideways to your target.

Pivot raider for extra 2".

Disembark "within" 2", which means that your Disembark is actually 2.9 inches (we'll call that three lol)

Fleet D6, we'll say 3" in this case.

Assault 12" due to combat drugs.

That is 32" on average with combat drugs, and 26" average without combat drugs.


This is how you do it

Deploy your Raider up against the Deployment Line sidways.

Pivot raider towards it's intended direction for extra 2" of 'hull' distance. You have not moved the Raider yet.

Move the Raider 12". Now, you have no exceeded the 12" movement.

Disembark "within" 2", which means that your Disembark is actually 2.9 inches (we'll call that three lol)

Fleet D6, we'll say 3" in this case.

Assault 12" due to combat drugs.

That is 32" on average with combat drugs, and 26" average without combat drugs.

[addamsfamily36]

Without my rulebook (its at home) i can't double check, but yup sounds ok to me, tad risky if your opponent can draw line of sight to your rear armor and gets the first turn, but otherwise.

[BuFFo]

Without my rulebook (its at home) i can't double check, but yup sounds ok to me, tad risky if your opponent can draw line of sight to your rear armor and gets the first turn, but otherwise.

Pffftttt

You must not know Dark Eldar.

Raiders are AV 10 all around. :P

[Wagzywagz]

It seems throughout this thread your conclusions have only been minimally addressed. I hope no one minds my diverting from the discussions on the housing market and the power level of the Dark Eldar to return to it. (Also, I hope that didn't come of as smug as it seems like it might.)

First, I would like to present some data that I have compiled. (This all assumes Meph is WS 7 (I think he is, but don't have codex))

I will assume that Mephiston passes all of his no retreat wounds, due to his 2+ armor.

Mephiston vs Keeper of Secrets

Assumes Sanguine Sword is successfully cast in all rounds
Round one
Keeper of Secrets takes the initiative
6 Attacks
4 Hits
2 Wounds
Mephiston Takes the initiative
5 Attacks
2.5 Hits
2.08 Wounds
1.04 Unsaved Wound
(Mephiston has 3 Wounds left, Keeper has 2.96)

Round two
Keeper of Secrets takes the initiative
6 Attacks
4 Hits
2 Wounds
Mephiston Takes the initiative
5 Attacks
2.5 Hits
2.08 Wounds
1.04 Unsaved Wound
(Mephiston has 1 Wound left, Keeper has 1.92)

Round three
Keeper of Secrets takes the initiative
6 Attacks
4 Hits
2 Wounds
Mephiston dies.

Keeper of Secrets wins with 1.92/4 wounds remaning.
price ratio: 1.25

Mephiston vs 6 TH/SS Terminators

Round one
Mephiston takes the initiative
5 attacks
3.33 Hits
2.77 Wounds
0.93 unsaved wounds (1 dead terminator)
Terminators strike back
10 Attacks
5 hits
4.17 Wounds
(Mephiston has .83 wounds left, 5 terminators still standing)

Round two
Both strike at I1
5 attacks
3.33 Hits
2.77 Wounds
0.93 unsaved wounds (1.86 total 2 dead terminator)
Terminators strike back
8 Attacks
4 hits
3.33 Wounds
Mephiston has -2.5 wounds left, 4 terminators still standing
Terminators win
price ratio: 1.04

Mephiston vs Wolf Lord with TH/SS Thunderwolf and Saga of the Bear(wolf lord is nearly as fast as Mephiston and can hide in squads)

Round One
Mephiston Takes the initiative
5 Attacks
4.45 hit
4.32 wound
1.44 unsaved
Wolf Lord Strikes
5 Attacks
2.5 Hit
2.08 Wounds
(Mephiston has 2.92 wounds left, wolf lord has 2.56 left)

Round Two both strike at I1
Mephiston Strikes
5 Attacks
4.45 hit
4.32 wound
1.44 unsaved
Wolf Lord Strikes
5 Attacks
2.5 Hit
2.08 Wounds
(Mephiston has .84 wounds left, wolf lord has 1.12 left)

Round Three both strike at I1
Mephiston Strikes
5 Attacks
4.45 hit
3.71 wound
1.23 unsaved
Wolf Lord Strikes
5 Attacks
2.5 Hit
2.08 Wounds
Mephiston is dead (-1.24 wounds), wolf lord is also dead(-0.32)
tie
price ratio: 1.04

Mephiston vs Skulltaker in a Chariot
Meph Strikes first
5 Attacks
2.5 Hit
2.08 Wounds
1.39 Unsaved Wounds
Skulltaker Counterattacks
5 Attacks
2.5 hit
1.25 Wound
Meph suffers Instant Death (from this thread, I don't think Meph is EW, but again, don't have the codex)

Skulltaker survives with 2.61 wounds

cost ratio: 1.43

15 Bloodletters vs Mephiston

Round One
Meph Attacks
5 Attacks
3.33 Hits
2.77 Wounds
1.85 Unsaved Wounds (2 dead)
Bloodletters attack back
26 Attacks
13 Hits
2.17 Wounds
(Meph has 2.83 wounds left, 13 bloodletters are alive)

Round two
Meph Attacks
5 Attacks
3.33 Hits
2.77 Wounds
1.85 Unsaved Wounds (3.7 wounds total, 4 dead)
Bloodletters attack back
22 Attacks
11 Hits
1.83 Wounds
(Meph has 1 wound left, 11 bloodletters are alive)

Round two
Meph Attacks
5 Attacks
3.33 Hits
2.77 Wounds
1.85 Unsaved Wounds (5.55 wounds total, 6 dead)
Bloodletters attack back
18 Attacks
9 Hits
1.5 Wounds
Meph Dies, 9 bloodletters are alive
Point Ratio: 1.04

There are probably other units that can kill Meph point for point, but I haven't ran the numbers for anyone else.
For the record Lysander loses.

Conclusions Based Upon Results:

1) 5th edition armies have more powerful melee than 3rd and 4th edition armies, as evidenced by relative performance of superior melee units, to such a degree that players using 3rd and 4th edition armies might well consider not playing with/against players using 5th edition armies. Note that while Mephiston kills 5th edition characters as well as 3th and 4th edition characters, he does so with greater difficulty, often receiving wounds in the process.

(As I am responding to your conclusions, I hope you don't mind a point by point response)

I don't think this is sufficiently proven by your data, as there are a lot of things that duels with Mephiston ignore that are very relevant in many assaults.

1. Defensive Statistics (Multiple wounds, Toughness, Armor save, Fnp): as with most CC monsters Mephiston has a S 10 force weapon. In this analysis a Nob, a Plague marine and a fire warrior all stand up equally well against Mephiston. This is obviously an incorrect conclusion, so our methods should be questioned.

2. Offensive Stats (WS, I): While none of these are explicitly ignored, they are all made nearly irrelevant, WS 5/6 and I 5/6 are usually great close combat boons, but they are irrelevant in this particular experiment.

In the opposite case, this experiment makes power weapons a requirement for success. Having a 2+ armor save and no invul is the situation in the game where a power weapon is most valuable, and while I would certainly say that power weapons are very good, this analysis overstates that. I believe this is best shown by comparing the berzerkers with the bloodletters against Meph.

I also take issue with your comment about players with 3rd and 4th ed codicies should consider just not playing against newer armies. I may be mistaken, but I believe that of the 5 remaining 3rd ed codicies (Dark Eldar, Tau, Witch hunters, Daemonhunters and Necrons) 3 are very good (Witch hunters, Dark Eldar and Tau, though that last one is controversial round these parts). While Necrons do suck pretty hard under the current ruleset, and daemonhunters can only survive by inducting a lot of ig, that doesn't mean that Codex creep has taken over the world. I would also like to point out that two of the best melee units in the game, boyz and bloodletters, are from 4th ed codexes. I really don't understand how you can so confidently proclaim that 4th ed books are underpowered just because they don't duel very well.

2) Instant Death weapon units with high initiative have a comparative advantage against units not possessing instant death weapons.

I agree with this conclusion, I don't think it is very useful, but it is correct.

3) Mephiston's performance is not in keeping with unit cost.

I can't outright disprove this conclusion, as there are obviously a number of situations where Mephiston is very good and worth far more than his points, however I would say that this isn't enough to make him broken.

Mephiston is very powerful, but he is really just a beat stick. Most of the other Characters in his price range provide large army wide bonuses, while Mephiston only helps you by killing dudes. He kills dudes very effectively, but he doesn't improve the rest of your army the way that Logan or Ghazgull or the Swarmlord does.

For that reason, I'm not yet ready to call him broken. I will agree that he is probably overall the most powerful melee combatant in the game, but he certainly can be countered.

[addamsfamily36]

Pffftttt

You must not know Dark Eldar.

Raiders are AV 10 all around. :P

And your ravagers?

i was including those too, which i believe have armor 11

but you might not take these (but im pretty sure you do, as well why wouldn't you lol)

but you might not pivot these i suppose