Orky Know-Wots

[Nabterayl]

Sure, even humans tend to similar designs due to similar needs and drives, but humans also have an oral tradition and a penchant for archiving and distributing knowledge.

So where does the human model of development diverge from the Orks?
A conservative analysis tells us that:
* Orks don't really keep record of their stuff, the only oral tradition we have track of is about legends (Runtherdz)
* Orks are pretty jealous of their stuff, be it physical or intellectual property (IE. Meks don't share weapon designs)
* Orks aren't too good at replicating previous efforts, sort of forgetting how the did something in the first place (see Doks often botching "serjeries" they already did several times)

Focusing on how or whether orks progress the state of their technology kind of forces us to question how orks know things, I think. Everybody seems to know about Ghazghkull, for instance, but ... how? Large as his Waaagh! may be in terms of sheer number of boyz, it isn't very large in astrographic terms, so it can't be that enough orks have rotated through his Waaagh! for veterans to spread the news by word of mouth (and in any case, if an ork found himself in the biggest Waaagh! in history, why would he leave?). Gargants are a similar problem: everybody seems to know about them, but the codex tells us that the original idea came from one identifiable mekboy. How does a race with little to no directed space travel spread ideas like that?

Whether it's the Waaagh!, space hulk express, or some other mechanism, it's clear that actual ideas get transmitted among even very far-flung ork tribes. I'd put forward this transmission of ideas, rather than the transmission of schematics, as the mechanism for what little orky advancement we see (and I do think we see some). I don't think that mek A builds a gargant and then transmits (whether by Waaagh!, space hulk, black box, or whatever) to mek B, "Hey, here's how you build what I just did!" Instead, I think what happens is that mek A builds a gargant and mek B hears about it (again, however it is that orks hear about interstellar news), and thinks to himself, "Wow, what an incredibly orky idea! I bet I could build something like that if I tried!"

Every now and then - very rarely, I admit - an ork seems to come up with a brand new idea or incremental advance that seems to appeal to the ork psyche. The gargant is one of them, which presumably has such widespread appeal for religious reasons. The shokk attack gun seems to be another. Ditto with large-scale teleporters. But the critical quality those things have is, I think, that they seem particularly orky (as opposed to particularly effective, for instance). If ork technology was going to advance from its current state, I think it would be in that way - somebody would come up with a machine that embodied some aspect of orkyness in a way that nobody had thought of before, other meks would hear about it, and be inspired to try their own hands at creating something similar.

[Madness]

@ Madness: No you could be right, they could be ideas that they just 'remember' but I feel its kinda strange to 'limit' a bioweapon in that way.

Actually it's the starting point of my reasoning, if I make a biological weapon, I'm basically making a supersized virus, and if I make a virus, I try to give it limits, or at least, control mechanisms. The spores are described as able to figure out when they should create something

The entire purpose behind experimenting is to learn. If they had no capacity to learn they would not likely even attempt to experiment. Also, you're ignoring the current canon which gives specific examples of how Orks learn.

For a scientific mind surely, but for a Mek/Dok/Runtherd experimentation is the only way to achieve results, in fact everything they do is a one-off experiment. Learning from an experiment requires a second -more reflective- stage, one that doesn't seem too Orky to me. This is corroborated by the fact that they tend to fail in creating stuff they have been creating all their life on a consistent basis. "*sigh* Orks... they never learn do they" is a fitting line.

However, they are inovative enough to take alien technologies and include them in their own works to make something new.
This means its a technology they weren't "supposed to build," it's something beyond their 'original' scope.

That would mean Brainboyz would refrain from using the enemy tools against them, possible, but not too smart.

If they were 'supposed' to build Gargants, they would have done so long before seeing imperial Titans; but they didn't.

Likewise, they new Kil-series Tanks, from forgeworld.
The fluff says that they are a whole new concept of ork craftmanship, never before seen by imperial forces. Made by the infamous Murder-Meks (I forget which planet) using captured forgeworld assembly-lines and reverse engineered technology (the main example being the loading gear for the Kil-Krusha Kannon; orks have never made such a system, until they studied similar imperial systems).

Again, necessity clause, Orks build stuff when they need stuff, they seem to wage war on a balanced scale, not many fights are depicted one gargant vs. a large infantry based army.

Old Paladin's statement does support what I believe then. The Old One's designed the Orks to cannibalize any tech there is and use it. Which in theory could explain why the Necrons stuff all teleports away, lol, could you imagine that at one point the Orks may have had Necron tech?

The more I think on it the more it makes sense to give the Orks the ability to take any tech and use it for themselves even if they cannot understand how they use it, they just do. That seems more like an approach an all-knowing race would take right? Limiting your bio-weapon only makes sense if you have already won the war and need an 'off switch' for it. And since the Old Ones weren't really winning, more like losing more slowly I would think you would go all out and go for the throat in any weapon you design. If all else fails M.A.D. is the way to go I would say.

Yeah but what purpose does it serve to create a weapon to win a war only to then succumb to said weapon when the Orkish version of Skynet comes online?

[Madness]

Focusing on how or whether orks progress the state of their technology kind of forces us to question how orks know things, I think. Everybody seems to know about Ghazghkull

This is true for space-faring orks, and for them word of mouth is a fair guess (with Freebooterz being the main tattletales?), but there's no mention of them in isolated settlements.
Heck you'd think that someone on Angelis would discuss such personalities, instead they only know the local boyz, and Gork and Mork obviously.

Gargants are a similar problem: everybody seems to know about them, but the codex tells us that the original idea came from one identifiable mekboy. How does a race with little to no directed space travel spread ideas like that?

You already know my POV on this.

Whether it's the Waaagh!, space hulk express, or some other mechanism, it's clear that actual ideas get transmitted among even very far-flung ork tribes.

Again, I don't see it happening. Consider that it's not just ideas, it's ideas, names, symbols, glyphs, legends...

But the critical quality those things have is, I think, that they seem particularly orky (as opposed to particularly effective, for instance). If ork technology was going to advance from its current state, I think it would be in that way - somebody would come up with a machine that embodied some aspect of orkyness in a way that nobody had thought of before, other meks would hear about it, and be inspired to try their own hands at creating something similar.

And that orkiness requirement has me thinking. How is it that all ork stuff is orky, humans do things in a dishuman way at times, but orks always "deliver".

I might be a conspiracy theorist, but I think it's a pattern.

And since I know where Orks got (part of) their patterns, I tend to attribute it all in one place. It's simple and it's not a stretch. Adding more ways is a fun addition, one that I'd accept in fan fiction, but one that isn't conservative.

Having Orks as actual innovators leaves too many loose ends, such as why with such a great head-start they STILL manage to lose wars ("Orkses iz never beaten in battle" is a funny catchphrase but not too true).

I know Eldar have limits (population and cultural ones), and similarly I know why every other race has them. If we posit that Orks are actually able to technologically progress in a free way I can't really see a SIMPLE limit. And I prefer a simple explanation to a complex one.

[Inquisitor Soren]

Yeah but what purpose does it serve to create a weapon to win a war only to then succumb to said weapon when the Orkish version of Skynet comes online?

If you believe you have lost the war, then I personally would make sure my enemy is absolutely unable to win the war as well. By creating a constantly growing, adapting, and ever changing force you have, in theory made it so the enemy is unable to win, even if you lose.

I feel that would be the exact tactic used in creating the Orks. I am screwed but so are you. A kind of desperate spite from the losing foe.

Again, necessity clause, Orks build stuff when they need stuff, they seem to wage war on a balanced scale, not many fights are depicted one gargant vs. a large infantry based army.

Hmm I would actually wager this one is fairly for story telling reasons rather than it has never actually happened honestly. If we look for a in-universe answer I would venture that the Orks would rather kill infantry in hand to hand if they had a chance, so they use the Gargants to butcher titans/heavy armor/things to tough to whack with a choppa.

Actually it's the starting point of my reasoning, if I make a biological weapon, I'm basically making a supersized virus, and if I make a virus, I try to give it limits, or at least, control mechanisms. The spores are described as able to figure out when they should create something

This one goes back to my original thought. The Old Ones and their Eldar were already losing, so they most likely opted simply to make a fail safe to destroy/stall/wound/weaken the Necrons. I personally believe that the Old Ones made the Tyranids after they fled and saw the Orks were not going to cut it, but that is a Whole Other thread. I see the Orks as the weapon of the desperate no sane, non-desperate man would create the Orks. Unless there was something worse, in this case the Orks are the lesser of two evils I would say. Orks could almost certainly have been handled by the Old Ones if they ever went rogue. But if you read Ork fluff they seem to revere the 'Brainboys' that made them, maybe in this way they built a failsafe into them. Orks respect big and green. And the Old Ones were said to be both of those. lol

[Old_Paladin]

I'm starting to feel like Mel here;
Most of us are giving quotes and paraphrases; but Madness, you're just giving us your opinions and feelings.
Just because you would create orks in a certain way if you were a brainboy doesn't mean that thats how the brainboys did it, or thats how orks are.
Orks clearly act in ways you say they should not be capable of.

And like Mel, until I see some actual canon information, I'm dropping out. The love a good discussion and debate; but it's pointless if it's facts against opinion and fanfiction.

[Nabterayl]

If we posit that Orks are actually able to technologically progress in a free way I can't really see a SIMPLE limit. And I prefer a simple explanation to a complex one.

I'm not positing that orks are able to progress technologically in a free way. But even you concede that meks are born with skills rather than schematics, right?

I think culture having the side effect of limiting orky innovation is a simpler explanation than postulating deliberately engineered limits on orky know-wots.

EDIT:

Again, I don't see it happening. Consider that it's not just ideas, it's ideas, names, symbols, glyphs, legends...

True. But ork and eldar language and culture bear very few similarities, which doesn't fit with the all-designed-at-the-source hypothesis. A number of other aspects of ork kultur don't really fit the designed-at-the-source hypothesis, either. A love of fungus beer? Pit fights?

[Madness]

If you believe you have lost the war, then I personally would make sure my enemy is absolutely unable to win the war as well. By creating a constantly growing, adapting, and ever changing force you have, in theory made it so the enemy is unable to win, even if you lose.

I feel that would be the exact tactic used in creating the Orks. I am screwed but so are you. A kind of desperate spite from the losing foe.

That's it, I'm never voting for you.

Jokes aside, that's kind of a d*ck move, I mean not only you'd screw the enemy and yourself, but also all the other races you created. That's a golden age superman level of d*ckery.

Hmm I would actually wager this one is fairly for story telling reasons rather than it has never actually happened honestly. If we look for a in-universe answer I would venture that the Orks would rather kill infantry in hand to hand if they had a chance, so they use the Gargants to butcher titans/heavy armor/things to tough to whack with a choppa.

Out of universe, absolutely. It's just a literary device, but as a continuity analyst (I'm getting cards printed online) I'd say that the orkish need for a fair fight is one of said control mechanisms.

This one goes back to my original thought. The Old Ones and their Eldar were already losing, so they most likely opted simply to make a fail safe to destroy/stall/wound/weaken the Necrons. I personally believe that the Old Ones made the Tyranids after they fled and saw the Orks were not going to cut it, but that is a Whole Other thread. I see the Orks as the weapon of the desperate no sane, non-desperate man would create the Orks. Unless there was something worse, in this case the Orks are the lesser of two evils I would say. Orks could almost certainly have been handled by the Old Ones if they ever went rogue. But if you read Ork fluff they seem to revere the 'Brainboys' that made them, maybe in this way they built a failsafe into them. Orks respect big and green. And the Old Ones were said to be both of those. lol

I share your hypothesis about the Tyranids, but it's a wild guess, so I'm shy to say it out loud.

You seem to see a danger in the Ork beings that I don't really see, I mean, they didn't take over the universe, and they have been around for almost as long as every other race did, so they aren't that dangerous, are they?

[Madness]

I'm not positing that orks are able to progress technologically in a free way. But even you concede that meks are born with skills rather than schematics, right?

I think culture having the side effect of limiting orky innovation is a simpler explanation than postulating deliberately engineered limits on orky know-wots.

I can't really say if it's an explicit set of designs, or if it's something that they intended to be the result of lateral constraints. Oddboyz are surely born with skills, but they seem to be practical with an almost complete lack of theory parts. And yes shaping cultural behavior IS a simpler way to channel a society than actually hardwire the specific steps.

[Fellend]

Notice how he is avoiding the canon issue?

But I don't think they have a need for a fair fight. I think they just have sucky logistics and most prefer the thrill of bashing things up close and personal (or shoot them up close and personal) compared to sitting in the relative safety of a Gargant and blast stuff away no matter how big the boom is

Also, transporting and keeping gargant that is power by non-futuristic means running must be such a burden. I don't really see them mining for oil (i know they have slaves doing it) I don't see them stealing all oil out of vehicles. Gargants and other things are just a burden, a neccessary and fun burden while you face other titans but after that. Well it's more fun to bash heads in.
(this is supported by their statlines as well, they were clearly designed to be melee warriors)

And still there's many examples of the orks creating new technologies, which seems to go against the whole precoded theory.
And once again, they are creating different weapons, sure they are called the same names because it provides the same function but one burna might be built using fuel, another burna might be built by salvaging the warp core of a a downed eldar ship a third might be built using tyranid pyrovore glands.
It's clearly new inventions they just share a simular function

[Madness]

I'm also avoiding stuff like stating that the sun is kinda warm and discussions about migratory paths of pigeons, I stick to what's relevant and not obvious.