Independent Characters

[Enemy5]

Is it possible when deploying your army to have both Shadow Captain Kayvaan Shrike and Kor'sarro Khan to join a Tactical Squad, and have the whole superunit infiltrate (army would be using Shrike's Chapter Tactics)?

[DarkLink]

Well, funny thing is, GW missed a little loophole in the rule that prevents Shrike from infiltrating while attached to a squad that doesn't already have infiltrate. So technically, no, you couldn't.

Otherwise, yeah, you could, as Shrike would give infiltrate to the squad. Your opponent should let you do it, even if GW messed up and it technically doesn't work.

[Enemy5]

The text for "See, but remain unseen" says "Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from the infiltrate special rule." So, per that text, if Shrike joins and is deployed with the Tac Squad, wouldn't that rule give infiltrate to the entire squad? Or, is that only if you purchase a command squad?

[Nabterayl]

The technicality that DarkLink is referring to is on page 48 of the main rulebook, which states that "Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them." The argument goes like this: the unit you want Shrike to give Infiltrate to does not have it already, so they must deploy normally. Shrike can then join the squad by being deployed in coherency with them, which gives the unit Infiltrate, but by then it's too late, because the squad has already been deployed, and you cannot deploy it again just because it gained Infiltrate halfway through the deployment phase.

The counter-argument, of course, is that the sentence in the rulebook could be accurately restated as "An independent character may begin the game already with a unit, but if so, he and the unit he begins the game with must be deployed in coherency." The Space Marine codex arguably supports this alternative reading.

But as DarkLink also said, this is really a pretty moot point in the real world. Regardless of which reading is technically correct, your opponent really ought to allow you to join Shrike to a squad during deployment and then infiltrate the lot.

[karandras]

This issue comes up once a month at our area RTTs.

We allow Shrike to infiltrate with his squad, but not any additional attached independent characters. The BRB is explicitly clear that when an IC without the ability to infiltrate joins a unit with infiltrate, the unit loses their ability to infiltrate. We go by that in my area.

[Enemy5]

In regard to that, if Shrike grants the entire squad he's with the infiltrate ability, then wouldn't that overrule the rulebook rule, since when there's two contradictory rules, the codex always overrules the rulebook?

This does seem like it may not have a true answer because the rules are written a bit fuzzy. Is there any email address to contact GW about rules questions like these? (There used to be a [email][email protected][/email] email, but that no longer works, and customer service seems concerned with only selling you things)

[Nabterayl]

Well, assuming you credit the technicality reading in the first place, no, there's no codex-rulebook overlap. If you credit the reading that creates a problem, Shrike's rule would need to say that he can join a squad in a special way in order to override the provision of the main rulebook that creates the problem.

[Enemy5]

...Shrike's rule would need to say that he can join a squad in a special way in order to override the provision of the main rulebook that creates the problem.

With the text of the ability being "Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from the infiltrate special rule." it appears that Shrike, and any models with him would all be granted infiltrate. So, if a squad is, in this case, Shrike, Khan, and a Tac squad, 'See, but remain unseen' would grant infiltrate to each model, allowing the entire squad to infiltrate.

The text on p48 of the rules in this case wouldn't apply, as it is referring to a character without infiltrate, but in my example, all models in Shrike's squad have infiltrate from the ability.

[Nabterayl]

You're thinking of the wrong text on page 48. Here's the question: how do you know which squad is Shrike's?

What you'd expect to find is a rule stating that independent characters can be joined to squads before deployment begins. But you won't find any such sentence in the rulebook. Instead, what you find is this:

Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them.

Now, that might mean "An independent character can join a unit before deployment, but if so, must be deployed in coherency with the unit it has joined." But it might mean this:

Let's assume I want to join Shrike to Assault Squad A. Assault Squad A, by itself, does not have Infiltrate. If the technicality reading is true, here's what happens:

1. Me: Okay, I'm joining Shrike to Assault Squad A, and they're going to Infiltrate, so they won't be deployed during normal deployment.
2. Rules: Sorry, you can't just declare Shrike joined to Assault Squad A. He can only become joined to them, if after deployment he happens to be in coherency with them.
3. Me: Oh, okay. Well, I'm going to join Shrike to Assault Squad A, and then they'll Infiltrate.
4. Rules: Sorry, Assault Squad A doesn't have Infiltrate until Shrike has joined them.
5. Me: Oh, okay. Well, during normal deployment, I'll place Assault Squad A here, in my deployment zone.
6. Rules: Okay.
7. Me: Okay, also during normal deployment, I'll place Shrike here, in my deployment zone, within 2" of Assault Squad A. Now they're deployed in coherency, right?
8. Rules: Yup!
9. Me: Okay, so that means Shrike has joined Assault Squad A, right?
10. Rules: Yup!
11. Me: Okay, so that means Assault Squad A is "Shrike's squad" within the meaning of his special rule, right?
12. Rules: Yup!
13. Me: Okay, so now that they're joined, they're going to Infiltrate.
14. Rules: Sorry, you already deployed them. You can't deploy normally and then Infiltrate, you have to declare that a unit is Infiltrating before normal deployment begins.
15. Me: But ... but ... but there's no way for Shrike to join the squad before normal deployment begins!
16. Rules: Nope!
17. Me: But ... but ... that means there's no way for Shrike to give Infiltrate to his squad before normal deployment begins!
18. Rules: Sure does!
19. Me: But ... but ... that means Shrike can only give Infiltrate to a squad after it's too late for them to use it!
20. Rules: Now you're getting it!
21. Me: But ... but ... that means Shrike's special rule is useless!
22. Rules: Hey, don't blame me. I didn't write these rules!

Like we've said, it's a totally lame technicality, and in my opinion any opponent worth his salt should be ashamed to take advantage of it ... but do you understand the technicality now?

[lobster-overlord]

So, Nab, is that really how the rules talk to you? If so, that's really creepy. (This all just goes back to the "when is deployment" argument, and thus if in reserve, a unit is considered "joined" and in coherancy while awaiting "table top deployment" even though they have already been "deployed into reserve"

I do like the way you put it as a conversation with the rule book.

Does BOLS use stickies for any topics? Seems like this one, and several others are constantly appearing, even one or two I've asked in the past.

John m.