blood angel vindicator rule change

[Culven]

I apologise if you feel i was insulting anyone, but i wasn't aware i was.

When you wrote:

when it is, i hope all those people furiously arguing that the most logical reasoning for it not having a blast is a dogmatic blinkered view of the lettering and hiding behind old and outdated (and in terms of 5th edition) "forgotten" codexes, turn into dust under their own stupidity and inability to actually play the game for fun.

It came across as though you were claiming those arguing RaW and presenting cases where weapon stats have changed as being stupid and unable to play the game for fun.

My intention however, was to address those responses to my previous posts (amonst others) who claim there are multiple versions of other weapons as evidence of a skitzophrenic nature by GW to randomly change weapon stats
These changes between weapon stats have ALL happened between editions 4 and 5. old weapon stats by the same name are technically redundant, but still used due to lack of updates of points cost/codex.
It won't happen between codexes (within the same edition) because it's supposed to be the same weapon.

May I direct you to the Space Marine and Imperial Guard shotguns? They have different stats without an explaination as to why, and the rules are both from 5th edition codecies. We don't know why they are different, we just accept what is written in the different codecies and get on with the game. Arguing that the BA Demolisher Cannon is "supposed" to be a Blast weapon is no different than arguing that the IG shotgun should be S4.

I understand this is a RAW conversation, but the RAW conversation ends at "It gets no blast" Which has no room for discussion - What does have room for discussion is how people are interpreting this and whether they are playing games like this or not. according to some, some are.
again, apologies if this comes across as agumentative, it isn't intended that way, I Guess i'm just trying to get my head around those that will go out and force their BA opponent to have no blast, and persuade them otherwise.

I don't recall anyone saying that they are playing it as non-Blast or any who are forcing their BA opponents to play it as such. I had mentioned a hypothetical situation where a player doesn't know about the Demolisher Cannon outside of the BA codex, and another situation in which I would play by the rules as written if using a BA Vindicator. Did I miss the post where someone said they would actually require their BA opponents use use it as written?

[Duke]

Im just going to throw in my two cents, though nobody might care...

As culven stated, this whole thread is really, (IMHO), more about application of raw, not necessairly how we are actually playing games. I agree that technically we see it doesn't have a blast, but I think nobody would argue it to death if your opponent used a blast template from their ba vindicator.

Duke

[Tynskel]

Actually, the assault cannon didn't change between editions, it changed between codexes, although the trial run for the new assault cannon was in the quick play rules for Battle for Macragge.
They haven't had a official change to "just use the Space Marine Codex" because their official stance is a change to self-inclusive codexes; you don't need to buy suppliments to play your own army anymore.

Most people here probably feel that it IS a typo; but, as has already been pointed out, we don't play this game pulling stuff out of our butts and calling things typos to get what we want or feel we should get. We play by the rules given until we're told that there has been a mistake.

The defence is that all demolishers are played one way; the tanks discription is word for word the same. If that's true, why is it fast? Is it listed with equipment demolisher cannon and overcharged engines, with a seperate vehicle equipment section stating that overcharged engines make it fast (I don't have the codex, so cannot look it up)?
If it was a copy and paste mistake, then is won't be a fast tank, as that is a change to the copy; which means someone has gone through and made some changes (it's must not be a straight copy).

I feel that it will be addressed in a FAQ; and will either read errata: "ord. 1, blast" or FAQ: "it is non-blast, this is the compromise for it being a fast vehicle."
But until then, we should play be rules given, not rules desired.

The assault cannon did not change between codexess--- it changed between editions. Assault Cannons in 3rd edition were 3 shots.

In 4th edition, they are 4 shots with rending.


As for TSINI's argument--- it is actually valid.

Precedent within the rules show how edition changes are uniformly changed, that every book that is brought to the new standard has the same weapon profiles-- however, they may have different costs.

Blood Angels have, essentially, an army wide special rule of fast vehicles, but the weapon profiles between SM and SW are the same.



Don't forget to copy paste...

[Old_Paladin]

The assault cannon did not change between codexess--- it changed between editions. Assault Cannons in 3rd edition were 3 shots.
In 4th edition, they are 4 shots with rending.


As for TSINI's argument--- it is actually valid.
Precedent within the rules show how edition changes are uniformly changed, that every book that is brought to the new standard has the same weapon profiles-- however, they may have different costs.
Blood Angels have, essentially, an army wide special rule of fast vehicles, but the weapon profiles between SM and SW are the same.

Don't forget to copy paste...

Meh, I actually skipped 4th edition all together; I just remember reading the quick play rules for Battle for Macragge that basically meant that it was heavy 4, rending. I thought Macragge was just a better box set for late 3rd ed. but it was years ago, and I didn't really care at the time.
And can you blame me, it feels like Ultramarines get like 2-3 codexes per edition; even though they only get one.

Yup, all 5th ed codexes are uniform... except shotguns... and landraider carrying capacity.
Actually, it seems more like each codex is very similar; but each have a few things different that make them special and unique to play.

[BuFFo]

Blood Angels have, essentially, an army wide special rule of fast vehicles, but the weapon profiles between SM and SW are the same.

Except for the Demolisher Cannon... :P

[Tynskel]

hehe, the exception isn't shotguns.

The codexes make a distinct mention that space marines use Manstopper Rounds.

[DarkLink]

Actually, Assault Cannons were changed by codex. All the 4th ed and later codices have heavy 4 rending. All the third ed codices remaining have heavy 3, with no faq or anything to update it. I think GK land raider crusader/dreadnought is the only non-heavy 4 assault cannon left, but it is still left nonetheless.

Edit: though I've never had anyone complain when I use the Heavy 4 rending stats.

[Culven]

hehe, the exception isn't shotguns.
The codexes make a distinct mention that space marines use Manstopper Rounds.

I know that the Dark Angels codex used this to explain the strength increase, and even mentioned it in the wargear as being Shotguns with Manstopper Rounds. It seemed to disappear from the wargear description over the next few codecies with S4 Shotguns, and I don't recall the Space Marine Codex as mentioning Manstopper at all. Was it buried in the fluff that I still haven't read?

[Paul]

I know that the Dark Angels codex used this to explain the strength increase, and even mentioned it in the wargear as being Shotguns with Manstopper Rounds. It seemed to disappear from the wargear description over the next few codecies with S4 Shotguns, and I don't recall the Space Marine Codex as mentioning Manstopper at all. Was it buried in the fluff that I still haven't read?

So normal shotguns are, like, birdstopper rounds? Or maybe lizardstoppers? lol

[Tynskel]

I know that the Dark Angels codex used this to explain the strength increase, and even mentioned it in the wargear as being Shotguns with Manstopper Rounds. It seemed to disappear from the wargear description over the next few codecies with S4 Shotguns, and I don't recall the Space Marine Codex as mentioning Manstopper at all. Was it buried in the fluff that I still haven't read?

Interesting point.

C: SM has no mention of the Manstopper rounds, however, C: BA does mention Manstopper rounds- they do have the same profile.
Shotguns are unavailable to C:SW.