Revisiting and Revitalizing the Chaos Cult Marines

[Katharon]

Maybe I'm obsessive-compulsive, or simply the daemons are wispering louder than usual, but I felt compelled to try figuring out a way to make Chaos Space Marines cult-marines (i.e. those devoted to a single Chaos deity) what they should – basically, how can we bring them back to the Legion-traits based ideals that we really want. The Loyalist Space Marines all have their respective chapter tactics after all, so why not share some love with CSM, eh? (Well, many reasons, but largely because Slaanesh always hogs the limelight.)


So, to start off, let's go back to the beginning. What are we working with here?


The Beginning

Day 1, week 1

Arrived at new camp on planet Ythcolgar. Started to feel pain in left arm. No idea why. Hung piece of paper on brother Ardius’ backpack reading “Purge me!” and had a good (and sinister) laugh with the rest of the lads. Brother Behemon painted the coolest ever winged skull on his shoulderplate today, and was brutally butchered by the guv’ (Estragor, Exalted Champion of Chaos) for being a Night Lords sympathizer.

As all and sundry know, the Chaos Space Marines because Chaos-y as a result of the Horus Heresy; that titanic struggle that ripped apart the Imperium of Man at the starting height of what could have been a great golden age, but instead saw the galaxy plunged into a never-ending whirlpool of conflict and murder, while uncaring gods chuckled from the ether. The chief architect of this fall were a couple of idiots (no, not Lorgar – the blame lies with Kor Phaeron and Erebus), but ruthless and brilliant idiots nevertheless. After all, if something is stupid but works, then it's not stupid. Worshiping daemons is stupid, but they give you cool stuff and you get to do what you want, so it's not stupid.

The Great Four, or Pantheon, as they are sometimes referred to are represented as follows: Khorne, the god of battle, wrath, hatred, and bloodshed; Tzeentch, the god of change, lies, ambition, and mutation; Nurgle, the god of decay, entropy, inevitability, and struggle; Slaanesh, the god of excess, perversion, pain, and pleasure.

So here we have the gods. What then are their puppets?

The four legions of the Adeptus Astartes that each fell to worshiping a particular Chaos God: The World Eaters Legion, ruthless and blood-mad berzerkers that follow Khorne; The Thousand Sons Legion, bookish and obsessed with psychic power that follow Tzeentch; the Death Guard Legion, stoic and rotting by the power of Grandfather Nurgle; the Emperor's Children Legion, extreme sensation-seeking pleasure hounds that follow Slaanesh.

Gods and their puppets. Each is pretty unique and, in the fluff, quite adequately represent their respective deity of choice. But they started out as so much more, before they fell to worship: they were Astartes, the greatest warriors forged by Mankind in history. Forged biologically and mentally by psychic and genetic indoctrination to be the kind of mass murdering psychopaths that you need to conquer an entire galaxy; trained and armed by the best.

What (USRs) Each Should Share


Now, these Chaos Cult Marines have existed since the mid to late 31st millennium. They conquered the galaxy and then spent several decades tearing it back apart again. They didn't succeed, but not through lack of trying. Hardened by two galactic wars, they retreated into the Eye of Terror, the gate into the warp – which on a good day can be described as a horrific realm of madness, hope, despair, and endless conflict; so kind of a nice vacation. Each of the legions that fell back into the Eye of Terror lost the cohesion that would allow you to really label them as 'legions'.

I'm sorry, but that's the bad news: Chaos Cult Marines are no longer legionnaires. But it's OK!

In exchange for the break down of their ranks and organization, the warbands that would come about became all the more savage and brutal – even in terms of what an Astartes is capable of. In terms of the table-top, that means what exactly? How can we adequately portray in rules what is shown in fluff? Well, firstly, it means that /all/ Cult Marines will share some basic USRs.

Fearless
These guys have conquered everything the galaxy threw at them, then spit in the eye of the God-Emperor that made them – that takes a giant pair of low-hangers that the best action heroes would envy. As such, they should get Fearless. (Yes, they get that now already, but it needs to be said; just covering all the bases)

Fear
One of the key things that is constantly brought up during the Horus Heresy is the fact that the regular hum-drum of humanity, when faced by these towering murder-machines, feel a sudden and practically mind-breaking fear: transhuman dread, as it is known in the fluff. Take that and multiply it by millenia spent murdering and sacrificing to the Gods of Chaos, practically permeating with their chosen deity's mojo, it seems deserving that they would cause everything they encounter that isn't immortal to feel FEAR.

Feel No Pain
(dodging moldy popcorn from the Nurgle section) Hear me out here, first of all. We all know that Space Marines are tough – they can take hits that would lay low any normal human being. How much more enduring and powerful can we consider these Cult Marines – even to the extent that their existence within the Warp for thousands of years may have affected them in other ways. Now, obviously each of the various variations of the Cult Marines will have different levels of FnP (Plague Marines will always have the best). So they're all tougher than anyone else, though some among them are tougher than others.


So there you go, the three F's. The three USRs that I believe that all Cult Marines really should share.

BUT WAIT! There's more!


What Makes Each Unique

So, as we said, each Chaos Cult Marine is a warrior who has gone through nearly 10,000 years of constant struggle, combat, and mind-break to become something that even a Death Company Marine would pause and admire. But each is also quite representative of their chosen deity. Here I'll discuss what wargear and extra Special Rules that they deserve to have. So let's get down to that:


World Eaters Berzerkers

The Blood God's own most glorious basterds. To be a true Khorne Berzerker is to be a member of the old World Eaters Legion and having half your brain replaced by an implant that makes you SO ANGRY AND RAAAAGGEE URRRGHNNNN that they could probably teach the Hulk a few things on the subject. So, what wargear and USRs are:

(1) Khorne's Will (basically a copy of Adamantium Will, but more Chaos-y)
(2) Black Crusader (copy of Crusader, but more Chaos-y)
(3) Furious Charge
(4) Fear
(5) Fearless
(6) Mark of Khorne (as is stands now)
(7) Hammer of Wrath
(8) Hatred (Imperium)
(9) Feel No Pain (5+)

(a) Bolt pistol, chain-axe, bolt gun, frag grenades, krak grenades, power armor

WS:5 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:5 A:2 Ld:9 Sv: 3+

Why These?
Khorne Bezerkers are suppose to be one of the most deadly close-combat units in the 40K universe; only a few Eldar folk or Space Marines (and daemons) able to come close to matching them (if that). As warriors who have pledged themselves to Khorne, they're naturally harder to affect with psychic/sorcerers power. They get the Crusader, Chaos version, rule because it's an example of just how effective they are in getting where they can stab things and in sweeping over the opposition. Hammer of Wrath, because – come on guys, they're followers of the God of Wrath! Hatred (Imperium) because it is the Imperium which they are forever in combat with.

Wargear-wise, I've always thought it silly that Berzerkers don't seem to carry their bolters. They're not idiots – bloody-thirsty, yes, but idiots no. So, giving them their bolters can make them a bit more usable and not pigeon-hole. Plus, it's not like they were throwing everything away when they retreated back into the EoT.

Stat-wise, I increased their Initiative and increased their base attacks.

Thousand Sons/Rubric Marines

The Tomb Guard of Khemri that have – oops, *cough* BLAM! (excuse the commissar while they drag out the filth).

The Thousand Sons! Formerly one of the most psychic-powered group of Astartes you could ever imagine – and not only more so. But that's only for the Sorcerers. Your regular joe-smoe Thousand Son that was Blunt (not Blank), were sadly turned to dust by the machinations of Ahriman in his bid to deny Tzeentch his goals...the silly fool. I'm fairly much in favor of calling them Rubric Marines, because eof the fact that they were only created after Ahriman did his spell: the Rubric of Ahriman. So, let's get down to it:

(1) Psychic Will (new rule, name can change, basically +2 to Deny the Witch; stackable with Sorcerer being a Psyker)
(2) Aura of Dark Glory (as is)
(3) Mark of Tzeentch (as is, but this could include the Deny the Witch bonus mentioned above)
(4) Feel No Pain (5+)
(5) Fear
(6) Fearless
(7) Veterans of the Long War (as is)
(8) Slow and Purposeful
(9) Psyker (Mastery Level 1) (Sorcerer only)

(a) Bolt gun, bolt pistol, close combat weapon (Thousand Son only), force-weapon (sorcerer only), Inferno Bolts, krak grenades

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:10 Sv: 3+

Why These?
Thousand Sons are the most linked to the raw power of the warp, more so than any other Cult Marine; this is reflected in an increased ability to deny that same Warp power affecting them. FnP is greater than their fleshy brethren because, well, they are only suits of power armor propelled by the chained wills of psykers and the trapped souls of former Thousand Son marines. As for the war-gear, just like it seemed silly for the Berzerkers to misplace their bolt guns, so too was it strange for the Thousand Sons to somehow misplace their butter knives. Also, I added krak grenades to give them a bit more versatility.


Death Guard - The First Plague Marines

The kind of folk you never want to invite to a dinner party – to many flies – are the Death Guard/Plague Marines. Well, by now you know the spiel, so let's get on with it, eh? Here we go:


(1) Mark of Nurgle (as is)
(2) Feel No Pain (3+)
(3) Fear
(4) Fearless
(5) Hatred (Imperium)
(6) Veterans of the Long War

(a) power armor, boltgun, bolt pistol, plague knife, blight grenades, krak grenades

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:5 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:9 Sv:3+

Why These?
Well, to be honest, the Death Guard are fairly decent as they currently are – but they lack that extra bit of edge that a model so expensive truly needs. As devotees to the Grandfather of Pestilence, they are more familiar with pain than even a Dark Eldar is likely to be, existing as constant, roiling petri dishes for Nurgle to play with as he wishes. Making them pay an extra tax for VotLW seemed excessive as well, so I included that in their profile as well.

Additional: Squad size limited to 10 models.

Emperor's Children Noise Marines

What happens when you combine Keith Richards, King Adolf Frederick of Sweden, and an Astartes together? You get a Noise Marine. There are section headers here in bold, after all. Same deal, different Cult:


(1) Mark of Slaanesh (as it)
(2) Fear
(3) Fearless
(4) Feel No Pain (4+)
(5) Rampage
(6) Hatred (Imperium, Eldar)
(7) Veterans of the Long War

(a) power armor, boltgun, bolt pistol, close-combat weapon, clamor grenades, krak grenades

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:5 A:2 Ld:10 Sv:3+

Why Theses?

Wait – what the frak are clamor grenades? Well, I'm glad you asked other-me. They are as follows:

Weapon: Clamor Grenades
Range: 8”
Strength: 4
AP: 5
Type: Assault 1, Blast, Clamorous*

Clamorous: A unit that suffers a wound from this weapon may not make an Overwatch charge reaction during the following Assault Phase.

So, yes, due to their grand experimentation into the excessive amount of noise and sights that can blind the senses, they get a grenade that is similar to Blind – but more specific and more effective. The reason being that if anyone knows how to make a weapon to paralyze a foe through their senses (audio, visual, etc), then it's the Noise Marines. I also gave them Hatred for Eldar in addition to the Imperium faction; and Rampage – because if you're rock stars on steroids, you know how to throw a good rave and rampage.




What Else Can Be Done?


So that is something that can be done to the base flavor of these Cult Marines. Point-wise, if they were to make these changes, then I would keep them all as the points that they have right now. But that does mean that another issue needs to be made:

(1) Include the Thousand Sons to the Chaos Lord's profile, enabling them to be taken as troops if the Chaos Lord takes MoT (not just Ahriman). There are other Thousand Son sorcerers running around, after all.
(2) The Chaos Boon Table. It's a table that is meant to have rewards for especially loyal servants of Chaos that have achieved their goals and pleased the gods. I'd remove the spawnhood result. Some people may get angry about that, but I'll simply sip my tea and glance at the current Perils of the Warp; I think we can all agree that if you screw up when using the titanic forces of the warp, you shouldn't then be rewarded by becoming a Super Saiyan (looking at you #6: Warp Surge). Other's might argue that this is the fluff bit, where the warp is fickle...hmm, yeah, no. There shouldn't be any positives on a table entitled “PERILS of the Warp”.
(3) Fold the daemonkin blood counter system into the CSM codex, but more general. Instead of granting FnP (we already dealt with that above) and an extra attack; it would grant more things like +1 Initiative or maybe +D6” to Charge ranges, etc.
(4) Bring back the old 5th Edition rules concerning transports and units disembarking from a transport that has not moved. The old rules had it that if a transport had not moved, any units that got out of it, could assault the turn they did so. This would give not only CSM, but nearly every army, a better way of delivery for close-combat. Lot of people complain about how “Assault is Dead,” but that's only up to a point. By making this change, it would, I believe, even the scales that have been tipped by the inclusion of Overwatch.


Think this is all crazy? Comment! Think of some new ideas or critiques? COMMENT!


Happy wargaming folks.

Day 7, week 7

Today, we were visited by a group of die-hard Nurgloids. Their Champion had newly been given the legs of a fly. Imagine trying to walk about on those thin little legs when you’re eight feet tall and wearing power armor... Well, at least he can hang from the ceiling, and I guess it could be worse. One time back in camp I heard a story of a Slaaneshi Champion who was given a most unusual gift by his patron god. All his body-parts became erogenous. Whether this was meant to be advantageous or not, we will never know... Later, we all teleported aboard the supply-ship which was passing through the fleet en route to the Eye. The ship was carrying all kinds of junk. Before we departed from it, I had got hold of a collection of Waystones, a shrunken ork-head, two kegs of some kind of drink, and Angron’s autograph signed in blood (probably a fake, since I doubt Angron really spells his name with a smiley at the end. Furiax found a fake “Forgebreaker”-hammer, a pint of old combat-drugs, a humorous parody of the Codex Astartes, and a crappy old weapon with “Mjalnar” engraved into it’s rusty blade. We also got our hands on an old map, quite fortunate, since we couldn’t get hold of any toilet paper! And who’s looking for the location of a so-called “Black Library”, anyway? Later in the evening, our ship was almost hit by a two-tailed comet! We watched it zoom past our window and impact on a nearby planet. We were originally scheduled to virus-bomb that planet for fun, but Lord Astralax assumed that the comet had probably already caused some serious destruction. And when a comet impacts on a planet, it’s gonna destroy a little more than just a single town. Trust me.

[Djbz]

I agree that Feel no pain makes sense for all the cult marines I'd have to disagree with the 4+ for Thousand sons and Noise marines and definatly disagree with the 3+ for plauge marines.
It should be 5+ across the board
Plauge marines extra toughness is already represented by their extra point of toughness.
Khorne Bezerkers are not described as being any faster than normal marines so should stay iniative 4 (and if anyone should have rampage it's these guys-not noise marines)
And since we are taking about 10,000 year old Veterans surly they would have more skill than basic marines So an increase to their Ws and Bs would make sense.


I'd make the following changesThosand Sons
Thosand Sons; Ws 5 Bs 5 Str 4 T 4 W 1 I 4 A 1 Ld 9 Sv 3+
Asipiring Sorceror Ws 5 Bs 5 Str 4 T 4 W 2 I 4 A 2 Ld 9 Sv 3+

Fearless,
Inferno bolts (With Autocannons and Heavy Bolters also being affected)
Sorceror's will (While the Aspiring Sorceror or another Sorceror with the Mark of Tzneetch is in the unit they all have the Relentless special rule - If their is no Sorceror they have the Slow and Purposeful special rule insread)
5+ invunrable save (including the boost from Mark of Tzneetch)
Mark of Tzneetch
Veterans of the Long War


Option of 1 in 5 to be armed with a Heavy bolter or Autocannon
Icon of Flame would either be ignores cover or -1 to cover saves from the units shooting.

Noise Marines
Ws 5 Bs 5 Str 4 T 4 W 1 I 5 A 2 Ld 9 Sv 3+
Champion; Ws 5 Bs 5 Str 4 T 4 W 2 I 5 A 3 Ld 9 Sv 3+

Fearless
Feel no pain
Prefered enemy (Eldar/Dark Eldar)
Veterans of the Long War
Relentless (maybe from the icon of excess, which could also add 1 to feel no pain)

Equipment; Sonic Blaster, Bolt Pistol, Frag+Krak grenades

Khorne Bezerkers
Ws 6 Bs 4 Str 4 T 4 W 1 I 4 A 2 Ld 9 Sv 3+
Champion; Ws 6 Bs 4 Str 4 T 4 W 2 I 4 A 3 Ld 9 Sv 3+

Fearless
Furious charge
Mark of Khorne
Feel no pain
Vetrans of the Long War
Bezerk fury (May Re-roll charge distances and treat all vehicles they are embarked upon as Assault vehicles)

1 in 5 should be able to get a Power weapon or Powerfist
Icon of Wrath change to either Rampage or Deathblow attacks (like Wulfen have)


Plauge Marines
Ws 5 Bs 5 Str 4 T 5 W 1 I 3 A 2 Ld 9 Sv 3+
Champion Ws 5 Bs 5 Str 4 T 5 W 2 I 3 A 3 Ld 9 Sv 3+

Mark of Nurgle (which should be changed to give feel no pain rather than +1 toughness, the +1 T being reserved for Plauge marines)
Fearless
Vetrans of the Long War
Blessing of Nurgle (Any attack that wounds based off anything other than tougness, such as poison, grav fleshbane etc. Need to roll one higher to wound successfully. So poison (4+) would become poison (5+) when resolved against plauge marines) (Would not apply to D-weapons)

[Denzark]

Katharon

Why not KISS - just use the profile from 3.5...

Anyway when Chaos gets the Decurion treatment I hope to see them pre-eminent again - the 3 heldrake Squadron throwing an apocalypse template as a torrent etc.

[Katharon]

I should have added a caveat: I'm not in favor of Decurions, detachments, formations, etc. I've always been a FoC-based army player. It worked for 5 (almost 6) editions, and now players seem more confused than ever (though once you think it through it's not that difficult to figure out formations,etc -- but why have that as a stumbling block to begin with?).

That is an additional reason for why each of the units has FnP and why it's so high for some of them. Although, considering that the Thousand Sons have a 4++, I'd change their FnP back to 5+.

[Path Walker]

3+ FNP? Why would you take anything but Plague Marines?

I agree that Chaos Space Marines should have the ability to be better than regular marines, I just think this does it in a very counter productive way. Sorry Kath, I know your heart is in the right place but this just falls in to all the classic "fandex" holes. FNP as standard is a little silly when you look at what FNP represents, it's a superhuman resilience, the ability to take a massive amount of damage and, for some reason, keep fighting. That doesn't fit with the Chaos Space Marines, yes, they're tough and resilient and have survived some bad ****, but then, so has a Chapter Master of any Space Marine Chapter, and they're still T4 without a native FNP, they have more wounds to counter this and that's what you should be looking at here, T4 W2, if you want to represent that they can stay in the fight. FNP should be for something unnatural, like the Plague Marines.

FNP being better than 5+ for anyone without modifiers from a warlord trait or relic is just not supposed to happen often any more, let alone 3+, its just too good, especially on something with T5! They're going to get a 3+ FNP on nearly everything in the game!

I5 isn't for your average Space Marines, certainly not for bloodmad butchers, you want to make them better in CC, but you're not thinking about representing the way they fight, berzerkers should have more attacks as they're savage swinging fighters, not lithe and graceful ones like an Eldar Aspect Warrior.

I think a standard Space Marine profile is already pretty elite and already is within the range of ability that a Chaos Space Marine would find themselves. Some Special Rules would help (incidentally, they're not called USRs anymore) but I just don't see FNP being one that makes sense in game or fluff terms. For those who are Veterans of the Long War, Fearless (they've lived through the horrors of the Heresy and everything that happened there, as well as hundreds of years in the Warp) and Hatred: Armies of the Imperium(rather than just Space Marines) makes sense but again, I can't see just any relatively newly turned Chaos Space Marine being any more Fearless than a regular Space Marine, especially now that they've thrown away their oaths of loyalty that bound them together.

The Noise Marines are ok, but Rampage doesn't fit them, they're fast and deadly but that doesn't mean they are going to be more effective when outnumbered, that rule represents massive blows that hit two or more opponents as easily as they'd hit one, which doesn't fit with how a noise marine would fit in CC. The grenades are too powerful too, especially when Blind is already a thing.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm torn on Fearless - mostly because I think it's quite a lazy rule, and doesn't particularly suit Chaos Marines.

Pour quoi?

They've broken their psycho-conditioning. They no longer believe in honourable last stands. Unless you Butcher's Nails are singing, even a Khorne Berzerker can see a lost cause.

I think they instead need some form of ATSKNF (I know, Chaos getting it...dirty Mystery!). Not the same rule lifted directly, but an approximation of some kind.

And rather than just give them special rules from the outset, how about some kind of Epidemius inspired worship chart? As they slay and praise their God, so their God blesses them further, giving them perks.

They need to be the elite of the elite though, that I totally agree on. A Chapter Master has decent stats because they've been fighting for centuries - some Chaos Marines have been fighting for Millennia.....Can you imagine how filthy hard a former War Dogs Legionnaire turned World Eater Khorne Berzerker would be?

[Charon]

My take on CSM:

Reminder, that is basic CSM, not Cult troops (which would be created through marks and Legacies).

CSM points stay as they are.
CSM Ld is now 7, may reroll.

Champion: Ld10, stubborn. This way we have a charismatic/brutal/... leader that keeps his boys in line and a "rather retreat than die!" unit if he is down. (Atsknf replacement)
Forced challenges are gone.

Strenght in numbers: If a unit of CSM is fleeing it can join another unit of CSM within 3" that is of the same type (infantry, jump troops,..), with the same legacy and the same mark. (Opposite combat squad)

Legacy: each detachment can chose one of X legacies and it affects all units with the Warband legacy trait. Example Legacy of the Night Haunter: Fear and Terror Tactics: Non-vehicle CSM models that do not begin the game in a Transport vehicle have the Shrouded special rule until the start of the second game turn. When rolling to see whether the Night Fighting mission special rule is in effect during game turn 1, you may add 1 to the result if your army contains at least one unit with this special rule. (Chapter tactics replacement)

Then either get a new special/heavy weapon or get MORE special weapons per unit size.
Also get more dedicated transports (drop pod, warp portal,...)

Marks would get on top of that, coming with both advantages (+1T for nurgle) and disadvantages (slow and purposeful for nurgle) and unlocking specific wargear (plaque grenades, plaque knifes,...)

[Path Walker]

I wonder how many actual true Legionnaires Astartes there are among the forces of Chaos in the 41st Millennia? The whole of Tenth Company of the Night Lords, for example, is down to a few handfuls of survivors and the Night Lords probably have one of the more survivable tactical doctrines, there can't be more than a couple of true World Eaters that have survived this long, surely? They rush headlong into battle and take casualties along the way, chance would have it most of the originals would have caught a bullet by now?

Not rules related at all, just pondering.

[grimmas]

Time does flow strangely in the eye. The Nightlords of the tenth experienced something like 150 years in the time the rest of the Galaxy had moved on 10000yrs so it's possible some had experienced even less. Also the ones that survived the Heresy are probably very good at surviving so for example they're the World Eaters who can avoid the bullet. Given the size of the Legions even if only 10% of them remain that's still about 10000 per Legion

I think the rules suggested are a bit much to be honest. I'd go with the FW rules as a start point and maybe go with the chosen stat line and options.

[Path Walker]

I think the 10th only experiencing 200 years was retconned to 2000 at the start of the second book, ADB mistimed some stuff and adjusted accordingly.

But anyway, I think even 10% is on the high side for survivors, I'd have thought that the Legions might well be at numbers of around 10% of their strength but there are new comers and recruits included. on the 10,000 figure as well, there weren't many legions after the Seige of Terra that were in the 100,0000 numbers. The World Eaters were a big legion but after Isstvan took most of their numbers on the Shadow Crusade and that was "only" 70,000, after that and then Terra, the loses would have been huge. You then have the Sons of Horus, who were perhaps the biggest of the Traitor Legions if I remember correctly? They were almost utterly wiped out by the other Legions in the Eye.

Either way, by the 41st Millennium true Heresy veterans are the exception rather than the rule.