Armored shield formation

[Charistoph]

But you were saying you could take Infantry Squads as a Troops choice earlier? I already said in my first reply that when using a Formation, it just takes the specified squad, then you started commenting how that was wrong.

That IS what I am saying. Heavy Weapons Squad, Infantry Squad, Conscript Squad, etc, CAN be taken as an individual Troops Choice. They have their own individual Army List Entry. There is nothing preventing it.

There are requirements for creating an Infantry Platoon unit which has requirements and limits, but those requirements and limits are only if you are planning on creating an Infantry Platoon. So, just because they are required for an Infantry Platoon, does not make the Infantry Platoon the only way they can be purchased.

If you take an Infantry Squad as a Troops Choice, you loose out on all the benefits of taking an Infantry Platoon, such as Combined Squad (limited to Squads of the same Choice) and numerous units per Choice, but it is still an option.

You basically repeated what I said, but with awkward wording to make it sound like you were countering my point, which is mostly what you said minus a few errors on your part.

Not quite. It looked like you were stating the only way to gain access to an Infantry Squad in a Role Choice is via the Infantry Platoon, "You're right that when building a list normally, you need to build the Platoon as-per the Platoon structure...", implying that the Infantry Platoon is the only way units like the Infantry Squad could be taken outside of a Formation's requirements. This is not a fact and there is nothing written to support this concept.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Charistoph, do you actually have a copy of Codex: Astra Militarum?

[Charon]

Don't thinks so. Also he must be the only person on the planet playing it that way.

[Katharon]

That IS what I am saying. Heavy Weapons Squad, Infantry Squad, Conscript Squad, etc, CAN be taken as an individual Troops Choice. They have their own individual Army List Entry. There is nothing preventing it.

There are requirements for creating an Infantry Platoon unit which has requirements and limits, but those requirements and limits are only if you are planning on creating an Infantry Platoon. So, just because they are required for an Infantry Platoon, does not make the Infantry Platoon the only way they can be purchased.

If you take an Infantry Squad as a Troops Choice, you loose out on all the benefits of taking an Infantry Platoon, such as Combined Squad (limited to Squads of the same Choice) and numerous units per Choice, but it is still an option.

No. There's so much wrong with that.

You will notice, if you look on pages 89-103, that each entry in the Force Organization Listings have darker outlines surrounding them, showing visually as well as by rules what is part of single entries.

Beneath each of the entries for what is part of an Infantry Platoon it says: "Each Infantry Platoon must/may include between [#] and [#] [Infantry Squads]." (Page 94-95)

It also says: "Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troop slot on the force organization chart."


You can't pick and choose from the Infantry Platoon, such as saying you'll take two Heavy Weapon Squads and that's your Troop Slots filled -- nope. If you want anything listed under the Infantry Platoon, then you have to take the entire platoon. The only way around that, is if you're not taking a CAD, but going off-the-charts.

Not quite. It looked like you were stating the only way to gain access to an Infantry Squad in a Role Choice is via the Infantry Platoon, "You're right that when building a list normally, you need to build the Platoon as-per the Platoon structure...", implying that the Infantry Platoon is the only way units like the Infantry Squad could be taken outside of a Formation's requirements. This is not a fact and there is nothing written to support this concept.

Correct, taking the Infantry Platoon is the only way to take an infantry squad outside of a Formation.

This goes back to the argument: "It doesn't say that I can't do it, so I guess I can."


Every edition of the Imperial Guard, since it was made, has always had Infantry Squads being part of an Infantry Platoon -- inseparable, until now with the advent of Formation rules. But if you're not using a formation, the only way to get the composite bits of an Infantry Platoon, is to use neither formations or FoC.

[Charistoph]

Charistoph, do you actually have a copy of Codex: Astra Militarum?

I have the epub version. And I have reviewed the hardback book for this discussion several times. Your point?

No. There's so much wrong with that.

You will notice, if you look on pages 89-103, that each entry in the Force Organization Listings have darker outlines surrounding them, showing visually as well as by rules what is part of single entries.

Beneath each of the entries for what is part of an Infantry Platoon it says: "Each Infantry Platoon must/may include between [#] and [#] [Infantry Squads]." (Page 94-95)

It also says: "Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troop slot on the force organization chart."

You can't pick and choose from the Infantry Platoon, such as saying you'll take two Heavy Weapon Squads and that's your Troop Slots filled -- nope. If you want anything listed under the Infantry Platoon, then you have to take the entire platoon. The only way around that, is if you're not taking a CAD, but going off-the-charts.

And the legend that states that outline defines this is where? Without a description of this, this is only an assumption regarding the situation.

I should also point out that outline does not exist in the epub version.

And I am not picking and choosing from the Infantry Platoon. I am picking and choosing from the Troops section Army List Entries, and that is the difference in the perspective.

And let me iterate this again, IF you choose the individual Squad as a Troops Choice, that is the only unit (aside from Dedicated Transports) which can occupy this slot. So no 1 Infantry Squad and 3 Heavy Weapon Squads in one Troops Choice, but this would take up four Troops Choices as each would be its own Choice. In order to have all these under Choice, they MUST be under the Infantry Platoon monikor, which means they follow their requirements and limitations.

Correct, taking the Infantry Platoon is the only way to take an infantry squad outside of a Formation.

This goes back to the argument: "It doesn't say that I can't do it, so I guess I can."
Every edition of the Imperial Guard, since it was made, has always had Infantry Squads being part of an Infantry Platoon -- inseparable, until now with the advent of Formation rules. But if you're not using a formation, the only way to get the composite bits of an Infantry Platoon, is to use neither formations or FoC.

Having its own Army List Entry IS saying I can do that. I need a restriction to NOT do it.

Just because it was done one way in previous codices does not mean it will always be done that way. Should I reference Dedicated Transports? They used to be their own Role, and had no way to purchase them via Role pick alone. That changed in 6th Edition with all in the Dedicated Transport Role were moved to Fast Attack. Command Squads are now being removed from HQ slots and moved to Elite slots and not made slotless with the purchase of individual HQ Characters. Crisis Suit Weapons could only be taken in pairs as Twin-linked Weapons, now this is not limited.

So, "it's always been done that way" isn't a good way to approach it without sufficient evidence that it is still that way.

Don't thinks so. Also he must be the only person on the planet playing it that way.

Do you have evidence of this?

[Charon]

Do you have evidence of this?

No army builder let you do this, no tournament let you do this, not a single IG player I have ever heard of does this.

According to this I can also pick 2 chimaera as mandatory Standard slots as they have their own unit entries adn dedicated transport just means that I can purchase them together with certain units where they dont occupy a slot.
Neither the codex nor the core rules disallow this, so I can do it. Also the rules do not disallow me removing your models from the table for no reason.

[Charistoph]

No army builder let you do this, no tournament let you do this, not a single IG player I have ever heard of does this.

Army builders are notorious for not being 100% accurate. Tournaments are chock full of House Rules, and have you actually checked and asked them?

No single IG player would do it (aside from the Conscript Squad) because outside of games like Kill Team and 40K in 40 Minutes it is 100% counter-productive (as I pointed out before). 10 VERY killable models as a Troops Choice is a waste. No access to Combined Squads is a waste. Fewer orders available is a waste.

The whole point of the Infantry Platoon is to provide a single Troops Choice with the resilience we see in other armies. Instead of just bulking it with pure numbers like Tyranids and Orks, you buy them in job lots via Squads. For a single Choice, no army can offer as many models as the Infantry Platoon, and that is before Dedicated Transports are presented.

I should also point out that I do not play IG. I may in the future, but my hobby funds are insufficient to the task at this time, and I still have way to many Necrons to build and paint and Marines to get rid of first.

In addition, how do you know what I have in my library? That is what you are accusing me of in the earlier response after all.

According to this I can also pick 2 chimaera as mandatory Standard slots as they have their own unit entries adn dedicated transport just means that I can purchase them together with certain units where they dont occupy a slot.
Neither the codex nor the core rules disallow this, so I can do it. Also the rules do not disallow me removing your models from the table for no reason.

Sure, if your detachment has slots for Dedicated Transports, why not? But I haven't seen any, and that has been the reason why Dedicated Transport Role units were not available for individual purchase.

If the codex does not allow this, please reference the rules where it states that any Squad of an Infantry Platoon may NOT be taken outside of the Infantry Platoon. All I have ever gotten on this is the equivalent of, "because". Note, the list of requirements for the Infantry Platoon is not a restriction against them being taken in another manner.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I've hung around Guard forums for years, frequented a few 40K forums and hang out on a lot of Facebook groups for 40K, and Charistoph is the first person who thinks the Platoon options are able to be taken outside of the Platoon that I've ever come across.

He also has the unfortunate trait of being unable to admit he's wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence.

[Haighus]

To be fair, in the ePub version, he is correct- there is no distinction between the Platoon components and any other entry in the list- for all intents and purposes they are individual entries that can be collated into a platoon. However, the paper copy does group all the entries into a single box, implying heavily that they are a single choice that is treated like one army list entry within that Cdex.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Googling up the Epub, I can see you're right in that regard, actually. The Epub version is wholly different to the actual Dead Trees version. For one it's laid out like crap, and for two there's the lack of the box showing that the Platoon is a single entity.