Armored shield formation

[Haighus]

Yeah, the ePub version is pretty terrible, I would take the hard copy as canon over the ePub.

[Charistoph]

He also has the unfortunate trait of being unable to admit he's wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Hardly. In this case, no one has been able to bring credible written evidence to counter my position. All I have gotten is the equivalent of "because". That is hardly "overwhelming evidence".

You say a box without legend is proof, but without a legend it means nothing.

You say they are included in the Platoon list, but that does not mean they cannot be taken otherwise if they do fulfill the standard measure.

Address these concerns before you start spouting off "overwhelming evidence".

Googling up the Epub, I can see you're right in that regard, actually. The Epub version is wholly different to the actual Dead Trees version. For one it's laid out like crap, and for two there's the lack of the box showing that the Platoon is a single entity.

Can you point out where the box is defined? And I should point out that the "box" isn't as all encompassing as it was in the 5th Edition version. That does reduce its credibility as an all-encompassing feature.

Yeah, the ePub version is pretty terrible, I would take the hard copy as canon over the ePub.

Terrible or not, it is as official as the dead tree version.

Just because you do not like the connotations, does not mean it isn't legal. Not to say there is much in the way of connotations, taking any Platoon Squad on its own (aside from the Conscript Squad) is remarkably stupid, inefficient, and wasteful.

Interestingly enough as a side note, the Getting Started Formation available to Skitaari/Mechanicus has two different paper versions. They include one version of the two Infantry unit that can be built out of the sprue. Which means you can be facing two different versions of the same Formation. Talk about the validity of a dead tree version...

[CoffeeGrunt]

I honestly don't care what you believe, Charistoph, but again, you're the only person who thinks that's how it works, and you know I can't post "written evidence" because 40K forums get tetchy about taking pictures of Codices.

It doesn't affect me at all what you choose to believe, Charistoph. I don't have the time nor the inclination to work past your stubborn refusal to admit that you're wrong.

[grimmas]

This is the box they're talking about



As opposed to individual unit entries



Guard infantry platoons have been around since they were first introduced in Rogue Trader they're not a new concept or anything

[CoffeeGrunt]

It's identical formatting to things like Techmarine Servitors, the Tempestus Platoon, or other such things. Guard basically had Formations before Formations were a thing. We just didn't get shiny bonuses for it.

- - - Updated - - -

E.g., Tau 6E Codex has Bodyguards in the same format, and they had a specific stipulation that they may only be taken if Farsight, Shadowsun, or a Shas'O Commander were taken. You couldn't just take them as a HQ choice on their own due to the prerequisite for taking them.

[Haighus]

Thanks for the pics Grimmas, that box shows how the entries are part of the same unit option. It is no different to how someone cannot just take a Sergeant on their own, because they are part of a larger unit.

[Katharon]

Dude, everyone has shown you all the evidence. You are the only - ONLY - person who interprets the Codex (EPuB or hard copy) this way. You can even e-mail the guys at GW (which I am doing, just so I can get you additional, truly not required evidence). They'll say the same thing we've been saying.

If you're going Unbound then you can take what you want. If you're taking Formations, you take what's in the Formation composition. If you're taking a CAD-FoC, then you take the whole Infantry Platoon to get Infantry Squads.

[Path Walker]

Essentially, Imperial Guard Infantry Platoons are a type of Formation, you take specific squads as the Units required and it grants you special rules. That's how I see it. Those squads are still available for other Formations, the Infantry Platoon isn't the only way they can be used.

[Charistoph]

I honestly don't care what you believe, Charistoph, but again, you're the only person who thinks that's how it works, and you know I can't post "written evidence" because 40K forums get tetchy about taking pictures of Codices.

It doesn't affect me at all what you choose to believe, Charistoph. I don't have the time nor the inclination to work past your stubborn refusal to admit that you're wrong.

If you don't care, don't post. You post, so you obviously care. If you care, post actual written evidence. You are presenting no evidence and you are basically just personally attacking. All you are saying is, "I'm right, you're wrong, and I can't prove it, so nyeh".

Pictures are not needed for written evidence. A quote and where to find it in the codex is all that is needed.

This is the box they're talking about

...

Guard infantry platoons have been around since they were first introduced in Rogue Trader they're not a new concept or anything

I am aware of the box (and have stated as such). Where is the legend for that box which I have mentioned several times? Especially since the epub has no such box?

It's identical formatting to things like Techmarine Servitors, the Tempestus Platoon, or other such things. Guard basically had Formations before Formations were a thing. We just didn't get shiny bonuses for it.

No, it is not the same for Techmarine Servitors. Techmarine Servitors are wholly encased in the datasheet, not a separate unit purchased, just extra models added to the unit's model list. Even the previous Codex Marine version had a conditional "for each" which the Infantry Platoon nor its squads carry .

Yes, it is the same for the Tempestus Platoon. Your point?

Formations are detachments, the Infantry Platoon is a Choice. But again, this comparison fails as Formations are the not the only way to take units. You can still take these units outside of those Formations based on their Role.

E.g., Tau 6E Codex has Bodyguards in the same format, and they had a specific stipulation that they may only be taken if Farsight, Shadowsun, or a Shas'O Commander were taken. You couldn't just take them as a HQ choice on their own due to the prerequisite for taking them.

Wording is a little different in this case. "For each Commander in your army (including Commander Farsight and Commander Shadowsun) , you may include one XVS Crisis Bodyguard Team. This unit does not take up a Force Organisation slot." This is a conditional statement. Where is the conditionals associated with the Squads and Infantry Platoon?

Thanks for the pics Grimmas, that box shows how the entries are part of the same unit option. It is no different to how someone cannot just take a Sergeant on their own, because they are part of a larger unit.

An assumption without a legend to define it. Where is the description of this box?

Dude, everyone has shown you all the evidence. You are the only - ONLY - person who interprets the Codex (EPuB or hard copy) this way. You can even e-mail the guys at GW (which I am doing, just so I can get you additional, truly not required evidence). They'll say the same thing we've been saying.

Yeah, the "evidence" they have presented relies on assumptions or limits based on options. In other words, reliance on a box which is not defined, reliance on requirements of another setup "just like a formation".

Real actual evidence would provide the written words which can be associated with the restrictions. Words like, "may only", "for each", etc. No one has presented that. All they have stated is the Platoon's definition and "WHAT'S IN THE BOX?!"

Essentially, Imperial Guard Infantry Platoons are a type of Formation, you take specific squads as the Units required and it grants you special rules. That's how I see it. Those squads are still available for other Formations, the Infantry Platoon isn't the only way they can be used.

Not really. Formations are detachments, Platoons are a Choice. In many ways they are, because they combine several units in to a type of group, but even that is in no ways a limit to the individual Squads not being able to be taken alone.

Warriors, Immortals, and Tomb Blades are required for Reclamation Legions. Am I required to take all 3 for a Combined Arms Detachment?

Tactical Marine Squads, Assault Marine Squads, and Devastator Squads are required for the Demi-Great Company. Am I required to take all 3 for a Combined Arms Detachment?

The answer to both of these questions is no. I can take a Marine CAD with only Scouts as Troops, Land Speeders as Fast Attack, and Predators as Heavy Support. I can take only Immortals and Wraiths in a Necron CAD if I so choose.

So this concept is irrelevant.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Charistoph, mate. I know you probably think you're correct, and you don't want to admit you might be wrong. However, you are the only person who thinks it works this way. This isn't a Renaissance moment where you are the singular voice of reason that casts of centuries of Platoon oppression for our beloved Infantry Squads and Heavy Weapons Teams. You are, I'm afraid to say, a bit wrong.

If I may, I'd like to point out that you have a pedantic streak about you that I've seen many times, and you're much more focused on proving yourself right rather than contributing to rules discussions in a meaningful way. This isn't the first time you've leapt down my throat over a petty interpretation of the rules.

Games Workshop rules are horribly written and horribly structured. RAW is practically meaningless. You also referenced Datasheets with regards to Techmarine Servitors, ignoring the fact that you're comparing a 7E format to a 6E format. Go look at the 6E Space Marine Codex for a proper comparison.

Why are the Ebooks a different format? I dunno, it's GW. Why isn't there a legend? I dunno, it's GW. Sun Sharks don't start the game with Pulse Bombs, Bloodletters have a high BS but no gun, and GW just throws stuff together to sell models.

Charistoph, even GW don't seem to want to pick over minutae to the same degree you do, otherwise they'd word their crap more coherently and we wouldn't have constant arguments over things like whether Multi-Trackers apply to Overwatch.

I'm just saying, you can make yourself feel right here all you want, but it's not how the Guard Codex has worked since third edition, and it's not how it works now. You can ignore the big grey box enclosing all the options as one, and say it needs a Legend. Go look in the BRB and see if you can find a page on that. I dunno, but it's a trait pretty unique to the Guard that they can take multiple units in one slot. If you can take Infantry Squads as a solo Troops choice, then why do they have Combined Squads? It doesn't make sense to apply that to the Unit and not the Platoon, as it only works within the confines of a Platoon.