Black Legion Formations and Special Rules

[Defenestratus]

Pretty rich from an Eldar player who still thinks his army is totally balanced against all others

I still enjoy my hobby despite what rolls out of the GW studio. It seems your hobby it just whining and complaining about what rolls out of the GW studio. Why don't you go play Infinity like the rest of the people who think they know how to make a game better than GW. It would certainly be something more up your alley it seems.

[his_dudeship77]

Don't start with fluff as not every warband is into mutations and according to the fluff an CSM is on par if not even stronger than a space marine (there you have your trade off) while in the tabletop the opposite is true.
And it is especially fluffy if your chaos lord ends up as a daemon prince beeing suddenly a lot weaker than he was before.

I do not want to start a ground debate on the "fluff" of CSM, but I would like to disagree with you, in the politest way possible, on your statement about Chaos Marines being on par/ stronger than usual Space Marines. This is, in my opinion, simply not true. Let us review which advantages a Chaos Marine has:
+ Boon of mutations, which usually are randomly sprouted by long exposure to the warp, but given the Chaos Marines alignment to their Chaos Gods, seem to be granted more accurately.
+ IF they were arch-traitors i.e. Marines that followed Horus into the rebellion, they have been waring since a looooooooooooooooooooooooong time, which gives them a bucket load of experience when it Comes to war.
+ IF they fell from the grace of the emperor more recently, they can be expected to have more updated battle technology such as grav-guns and MK VII or MK VIII armour. Of course it can be argued that the Imperium of Man fell into a stagnation concerning technology but it can not be argued that a well organized realm of a loosley united race can better maintain their war machinery then a badly organized rag-tag band of self-centered techno-barbarians.
+ Freedom to learn and use anything they want to, with no restrictions from an ignorant, witch hunting state.

Now the draw-backs:
- Unorganized, ununited band of rag-tags with a dog-eat-dog attitude. Yes, this will produce stronger specimen but in such a limited number it is questionable that these will have an impact in a battle, given their rarity.
- IF they are arch-traitors i.e. Marines that followed Horus into the rebellion, they have seriously outdated weaponry and armour with no real means to maintain said equipment except through raids. These raids in themselves carry again a certain risk of losing or damaging equipment... its a vicious circle.
-IF they fell from the grace of the Emperor more recently they will not have any more battle experience than a loyalist marine. The only thing that is different is the their point of view.
- Higher risk of being wacked by the randomness of Chaos... there is stories of potential Chaos Marines who excelled at bringing the Imperium to its knees who were simply turned into a giant blob of goo by their fickle gods. Where is the logic in that?

Their changed physique did not happen due to magical chance, it can be considered a boon from Chaos. Bloated bellies, multiple arms, increased height, supernatural speed, these are all chaos-mutations or at best genetical and physical tinkering by some mad apothecary which the narrow minded Inquistion of the Imperium would not allow.
As such, I simply cannot see how a Chaos Space Marine would surpass their loyal counterparts, except through the gift of mutations and sometimes unorthodox physicial enhancement.

[Muninwing]

You must be a powergamer, because the randomness of Chaos and its mutation gambles are super fluffy. Chaos is based on the "if you play with fire you'll get burned" adage. It seems like you've chosen the wrong army for your playstyle. If you want a more steady version of Chaos Marines, just play Space Marines.

chaos is not immediately getting burned though... it's about temptation, conviction, a warped perspective, and the promises of power increasing so that the risks are worth the gains.

randomization doesn't always work in scale or theme. if i'm a chaos general and i have access to Possessed marines, i'm going to send in the ones with wings to do the things that ones with wings would, since they'd have that mutation when they banded together -- and i wouldn't assign them a rhino. but not knowing until you roll on the chart creates uselessness.

i'm ok with using boons and randomness in certain contexts. but they have really started using it as a gimmick instead of fluff in the last few books.

[his_dudeship77]

It would certainly be nice seeing some sort of balance between fluff and actual playability. While I do believe that Chaos Space Marines mostly operate on a more small scale ,"warband"-ish sort of basis, it would be nice if they could still hold their own against more organized armies. Say for example Chaos Space Marines ,as they currently are, would get access to game impacting special rules. For example:
- Sabotage: At the beginning of the game each enemy tank gets hit by a S5 AP - against their rear armour
- Whisper of Chaos: At the beginning of the game, each enemy unit needs to take a Leadership test. Should the unit fail, they loose 1 model as one of theirs flees to join Chaos .
- Grave Mutation: Put 3 markers on the battlefield. From turn 2 onwards roll for each marker. On a 3+ place the 5" above the marker and scatter it 2D6". Any modell below the marker receives a S4 AP2 wound. Should a whole unit be destroyed by the template, replace the unit with a Chaos-Spawn under your control.

It is just an idea but hey... might work

Another thing I thought would have really been nice, is some rule which would make you feel the effect of the slowly creeping corruption of Chaos.
Say for example that they could come up with a special rule for Individual Characters in armies, or even just Characters such as Champions. They should give them the option to always pray to the Chaos gods in order to receive some powerful boon, but on the other hand, when you do get the boon, it will also affect your game score in a really negative way. So that you might win the battle, but can't help feel like loosing the war.

[AdamHarry]

via [URL="http://forum.spikeybits.com/showthread.php?20775-Chaos-Space-Marines-Rumor-Roundup&p=239522&viewfull=1#post239522"]Captain Citadel[/URL] 4-6-2016

[Charon]

I still enjoy my hobby despite what rolls out of the GW studio. It seems your hobby it just whining and complaining about what rolls out of the GW studio. Why don't you go play Infinity like the rest of the people who think they know how to make a game better than GW. It would certainly be something more up your alley it seems.

Oh noez someone playing the best army in the game (and in every single edition except one) enjoys to be on top. Mind blown.

[Defenestratus]

Oh noez someone playing the best army in the game (and in every single edition except one) enjoys to be on top. Mind blown.

I'm not the one sticking around a game that I don't like. Again, if you're so unhappy, why do you stick around with 40k? Is it the models? Is it the fluff? It's clearly not the rules since you take every opportunity to complain about them when you can.

[Mr Mystery]

Oh noez someone playing the best army in the game (and in every single edition except one) enjoys to be on top. Mind blown.

As opposed to CSM players who still hanker after the 3.5 Codex and the days when they didn't have to do that much thinking?

Glass houses, dude.

[Charon]

I'm not the one sticking around a game that I don't like. Again, if you're so unhappy, why do you stick around with 40k? Is it the models? Is it the fluff? It's clearly not the rules since you take every opportunity to complain about them when you can.

A mix of Fluff and the fact that my Eldar and Daemons are still valid to play. Unlike my CSM and DE. But I know this is hard to understand that I want an even ground for all armies. It may be old fashioned but I do like fair games and I take no delight in
my fair and totally balanced Eldar smashing some Dark Eldar (that are of course on the same level because... Eldar is not stronger as we all know!) because of my tactical genious that is a byproduct of my better unit stats and formations rules all over the board.

[Defenestratus]

A mix of Fluff and the fact that my Eldar and Daemons are still valid to play. Unlike my CSM and DE. But I know this is hard to understand that I want an even ground for all armies. It may be old fashioned but I do like fair games and I take no delight in
my fair and totally balanced Eldar smashing some Dark Eldar (that are of course on the same level because... Eldar is not stronger as we all know!) because of my tactical genious that is a byproduct of my better unit stats and formations rules all over the board.

What got you into these armies then in the first place? For me and Eldar, it was the swooping hawk, striking scorpion, warp spider and war walker models. I really adored them (the 2nd edition sculpts). The Eldar lore really connects with me, the conceit, the fall, the rebirth, the scratching and clawing for existence while still maintaining hope that the old times can be relived again but probably not.

As for my Blood Angels - I always loved the look of the assault marine jet pack and back then I could paint red pretty well. Then the Sang Guard models came out and I convinced myself that I needed to start that army, so I did. Now I've got over 12,000 points of the emo space vampires.

My Grey Knights - well, I love the GK Terminator model. It's totally badass. Plus the whole Lord Inquisitor trailer kind of still makes me get a little excited inside when I watch it. Plus, I really enjoyed the Emperor's Gift novel which was about the GK.

I've got a "get started" box of IG because I want an excuse to build and paint a bunch of baneblades/shadowswords.

Admittedly I don't love the BA or GK nearly as much as my Eldar, but you never get over your first love. I like the new Eldar book because its allows me to play Eldar the way that I imagined them playing in my head. Fast, lightning strikes with flimsy glass-like models. And Swooping Hawks that can attack flyers in mid-air - because thats f**kin metal.

What is it about your CSM and the DE that originally drew you to them? What other than the rules connects you to them and gives you enjoyment?

FYI, I don't pretend to be some gift to 40k strategy. I've still lost more games with the new Eldar book than won (probably because I don't use wraith* and I'm playing against my buddy Ian who is really damn good - and a psychopath who thinks he's actually his Ultramarine Chaplain named "T"... no seriously, he thinks he's Chaplain T). I don't really *care* about winning though since that's not what the "game" is about for me since I realized that I'd only find misery that way. I learned to enjoy the experience of playing the game rather than enjoying the outcome of playing the game.

So you can accuse me of being a frontrunner when it comes to loving Eldar - thats fine. I don't care because whenever I get the chance to play 40k, I thoroughly enjoy myself. I'm just trying to help you find happiness in the hobby, or convince you that its not the game for you.