"Agnostic" Marines

[Nabterayl]

Yeah, "holy" just means "set apart." It's pretty clear that space marines view the Emperor as set apart from the rest of humanity, just as by extension they see themselves as set apart from the rest of humanity.

It's not really clear to me that space marines typically have a religion per se, but they do pretty clearly typically have hero cults (i.e., no god, but plenty of more-than-human figures to whom they give quasi-religious devotion and veneration). The [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_hero_cult]hero cults of ancient Greece[/url] are perhaps the best analogy.

Incidentally, I note that Lexicanum points out that the real core of the [url=http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Cult]Imperial Cult[/url] is not that the Emperor is a god, but rather that the Emperor is the sovereign, defender, and benefactor of Mankind. The Ecclesiarchy happens to teach that the Emperor is a god, but as long as you believe that the Emperor is Mankind's ultimate sovereign, defender, and benefactor, you believe the core of Imperial religion. Thus, a space marine's hero-cult devotion to the Emperor, while not the version of the Imperial Cult espoused by the Ecclesiarchy, is still a version of the Imperial Cult.

By contrast, if you believe that the Emperor is a god but is not the sovereign, defender, and benefactor of Man, you are a heretic. At the end of the day the Imperial Cult only really cares that the Emperor is the top of your cosmological food chain. It doesn't particularly care how you get the Emperor up there.

[Freefall945]

Their rhetoric does not necessarily mean that they worship the Emperor as a God. Saying that they are going on a holy crusade doesn't mean they worship him. It means that it's their faith that drives them (Holy: having a spiritually pure quality
And no matter if you believe him to be a god the title God-Emperor is something he has been given by trillions of people who do.

Well, one could say that I suppose, but I feel that it's more obvious that they use religious terminology because they are religious in some way regarding him.

Space Marines have Chapels, and Chaplains, and the 3rd Ed codex also suggest they spend hours per day in prayer - which is something no one can spin into an agnostic whatever session.

I think the Space Marine creed differs significantly from the Imperial creed, and they probably revere him in a less prostrate manner to pilgrims, but the very -flavour- of the army smacks of paladin.

And that's deliberate - Space Marines are thematically sculpted after european warrior monks like the Knights Templar, and Hospitallers.

Naturally, no one should let this constrain how their chapter views the father of mankind!

[gorepants]

Well, one could say that I suppose, but I feel that it's more obvious that they use religious terminology because they are religious in some way regarding him.

Space Marines have Chapels, and Chaplains, and the 3rd Ed codex also suggest they spend hours per day in prayer - which is something no one can spin into an agnostic whatever session.

I think the Space Marine creed differs significantly from the Imperial creed, and they probably revere him in a less prostrate manner to pilgrims, but the very -flavour- of the army smacks of paladin.

And that's deliberate - Space Marines are thematically sculpted after european warrior monks like the Knights Templar, and Hospitallers.

The prayer aspect seems to owe a lot to the Buddhist style warrior monk as well. Certainly their fervour for the Emperor and the Imperium owes more to militant Christian traditions, but the agnostic/atheistic nature of their spiritual life seems sits closer to Buddhism. It's mostly driven at finding inner peace to more effectively kill stuff (the killing bit is not that close to Buddhism!), and doesn't require any particular God or gods.* They do however revere their work, their tools and their brothers. This also smacks of north European and Greco-Roman religions, which were much closer to tribal animism, and whose gods were much more human. In one of the newer short stories, a new Chaplain is chosen for his violent hatred of the enemy, not his devotion to the Imperial cult.

In short, marines are a hodge-podge of references, though in the fluff they do not (for the most part) worship the Emperor as a literal god.

* In practice the metaphor is mixed, since it would seem they have stripped away the mystical aspects of the imperial cult prevalent in the ecclissarchy, like Zen, but retain a fixation on ritual and litanies, like dharmic Buddhism.

[Freefall945]

The prayer aspect seems to owe a lot to the Buddhist style warrior monk as well. Certainly their fervour for the Emperor and the Imperium owes more to militant Christian traditions, but the agnostic/atheistic nature of their spiritual life seems sits closer to Buddhism. It's mostly driven at finding inner peace to more effectively kill stuff (the killing bit is not that close to Buddhism!), and doesn't require any particular God or gods.* They do however revere their work, their tools and their brothers. This also smacks of north European and Greco-Roman religions, which were much closer to tribal animism, and whose gods were much more human. In one of the newer short stories, a new Chaplain is chosen for his violent hatred of the enemy, not his devotion to the Imperial cult.

In short, marines are a hodge-podge of references, though in the fluff they do not (for the most part) worship the Emperor as a literal god.

* In practice the metaphor is mixed, since it would seem they have stripped away the mystical aspects of the imperial cult prevalent in the ecclissarchy, like Zen, but retain a fixation on ritual and litanies, like dharmic Buddhism.

I'm trying hard, but I don't see it. I don't see how anything about what Space Marines do more closely resembles any religious (or non-religious) group more closely than european crusader-monks. Hatred if the Xenos is a righteous and pious thing as far as the Imperium is concerned! I don't think I've ever seen the phrase "inner peace" used in W40k. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I'd really like to see how you came to that conclusion.

Oh, and I even forgot Black Templar, and the whole -Pray-Until-Someone-Gets-A-Vision-From-The-Emperor-And-That-Dude-Is-His-Champion- thing.

EDIT: Just noticed Nabterayl's post. Touche! The greek hero-cult idea meshes well with the Primarch bit, but I maintain that the lore is inconsistent on how pervasive non-theistic devotion to the Emperor is within the Astartes: Space Marines frequently seem to pray to him, and periodically he responds with divine miracles.

[Fellend]

Then I think you need to read up on bhuddism. Just because I sit down and pray for the power to strike down my enemies does not mean I emulate the christian worship. If I sit down and pray for strenght "Please give me strenght" "Please let me be like you were on the battlefield" "Please let me strike be like yours" "Please let my hatred be like yours" "Please let me fulfill my duty without fear and let me honour the primarchs"
These are prayers but they do not make the Emperor a god. They simply make him the object of my devotions. In the same way little boys and girls asks hope and pray to be like Zlatan on the fotballfield (insert american sports reference there)

Spending hours in prayer is something practiced in many religions. All you need to do is to meditate on your actions and wish for something to happend and you are praying. Zenbuddhism is full of this (infact right now I'm wondering how to say pray TO SOMEONE for help in japanese as they clearly have seperate verb for that)
.
to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
2.
to offer (a prayer).
3.
to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
4.
to make earnest petition to (a person).
5.
to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.
6.
to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to god or to an object of worship.
7.
to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer.
–verb (used without object)
8.
to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing.

As you can see in most cases the word pray aren't even linked to a god.

As far as the Black Templar goes: The champion does not pray untill he he gets a vision. He gets a vision and then goes to the chaplain to recieve the boons . So technically he gets chosen by a higher power. Whether or not he prays for this is not mentioned.
And yes the Black Templar is obviously inspired by the Crusaders as can be seen by their heraldry. But as pointed out before other chapters get their reference from other fighting forces throughout history. Ultramarines from the Spartans/Greeks and Space wolfs from Vikings being the most obvious examples.

[Freefall945]

When people pray to be like a sports hero of some kind, they are doing one of two things:
1. They are legitimately petitioning a divine power which they hope will grant them this athletic boon,
2. They are being insincere.

What they are certainly not doing is praying to the sports star in hopes that will in some way benefit them.

I know plenty about Buddhism, thank you, but I still don't feel it's relevant. What's happening here is definitional warfare, and blurting out a string of definition of the word "prayer" and nailing Space Marines to one of them isn't going to cut it. While prayer can be defined in one manner as simply heartfelt petition to the object of my devotion, a god can be likewise defined as something or someone a person or people deifies, and deification can be defined as exalting or worshipping, which brings us full circle.

The question one really should be asking is "what were the creators of space marines, and those who have successively sculpted their fiction over the years, thinking when they wrote about space marines praying", I think the simplest and most likely answer is that they pray to the emperor because they feel he has some kind of divine power or influence on events.

Prayer may not neccesarilly be to a god, holy may not necessarily refer to divinity, Chaplains may not neccesarilly be guides to matters theological, chapels may not necessarily be places of piety and submission to one's god, crusades might not necessarily be religious endeavors, etcetera etcetera, but exegetically, a kind of god-reverence makes the most sense.

There is lore that says they do not, but I think the most logical thing to conclude is that a number of writers who thought about it deeply decided that Space Marines should not consider the Emperor a divine being but a sort of heroic role model, and the majority of writers, who did not see this as a necessary conclusion to draw, continue to litter the dialogue and background of Space Marines with openly religious connotation.

[Legoklods]

I think the mentors chapter are fairly laid back on the whole divine god emperor thing...

[Gotthammer]

I see it as a form of ancestor worship - he's not a god pre se, but the Emperor exists both in the real world and beyond, in the spirit, so when they pray to him it is more for guidance and for him to enlighten them how to be like him, than for divine intervention.

A lot of Marine rituals are bound up in ancestor worship type rites and prayers to sprits - in Eisenstein Garro gets a new bolter inscribed with the name of each previous bearer and comments on the bolter's spirit serving his friend. Also see the rites of prayer to their armour's spirit.
I see their worship of the Emperor as the same thing, a sort of medative reflection of 'how can I be like the Emperor?' mixed with 'hey Emperor, show me how to be like you'. They're not expecting any miracles from him, but focussing their minds on the Emperor's (or Primarch's) perfect example of what they should be.

Using the sports star analogy, in my view, it is the same thing as sticking pictures of Michael Jordan all over your room, joinig his fan club, wearing his jersey all the time, buying anything with his face on it, following everything he says to do in ads or PSAs, going to every game, and writing him letters about how you want to be like him one day. Someone with that mindset, when going out onto a b-ball court, will be thinking 'what would Jordan do?', and perhaps even look into the stands vainly in the hope their hero shows up to see them (after all, they wrote him a dozen letters).

Then make Jordan a psychic (so he can hear thoughts) superbeing and then that hero-worship, infused with 40k's 'everything has a spirit' and tangible spirit realm and presto - it wouldn't be too much of a stretch in the 40kverse to imagine that same fan looking up at the stands and seeing a billboard with Jordan on it and going 'it's a sign! Jordan is with me and has used his incomprehensible powers to show me he approves of my course of action!'

Make Michael Jordan the Emperor, and he may look like a god to the uneducated masses fooled by the Ecclesiarcy, but the Marines know better, that he is just the supreme example of humanity who should be idolised and is a source of inspiration and aspiration.

[Freefall945]

I get that idea, and certainly agree that space marines have a great deal of sacred reverence for their predecessors and especially their primarch.

However, when Garro prays to his bolter to thank it for serving his friend, or when marines pray to the armor they are about to wear, they're not doing this as an idiosyncratic moment of lucky charm-rubbing. This is no rabbits foot, or Michael Jordan poster! They actually believe, and are told, that their machines are possessed of a spirit which needs to be regularly appeased and honored in order for it to function. They are sincere in their communication to their wargear, they are not simply offering external private meditation. I would submit to you that it follows they are sincere in their worship of the Emperor.

I feel a lot of what is miscommunicated here is incorrect. Certainly, the unwashed masses of the Imperium think of the Emperor as a Monotheistic God - omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient. Follow his dictates! The Emperor is watching, and judges your heart!

My analysis leads me to believe that Space marines generally view their father more like a Zeus figure; far away on Mount Olympus. His knowledge and power far exceeds their own and prayers to him are sincere gestures of piety and worship, though they do not feel his is present everywhere, all powerful, and absolutely all knowing.

Half of the arguments I'm reading here say "They don't think of him as a God, but a man, because" which could be readilly re-written to say "They don't think of him as THE God, but a god, because".

[Nabterayl]

I think the important point is that a space marine would not say that he thinks of the Emperor as a god. We can quibble all day about what qualities an entity needs to have in order to be considered a "god," but for purposes of this discussion, what's really important is how a space marine would think about it.

I think the Zeus analogy is getting closer, but it still makes the Emperor a god figure. I think it's more accurate to say that a space marine views the Emperor as a Hercules figure. Like Hercules (at least in the Archaic era), the Emperor is thought to have been a hero of old, a literal human being, but one who exhibited such prowess as had never been seen before and will never be seen again, who is not now and never was a god, but who nevertheless can be said to exist in some form in the present day, to whom a man might look as an exemplar and of whom a man might make requests.

Or if you can't think of these things except in Christian terms, imagine an order of warrior monks who believe that they are descended from Michael and pray to Michael not as their god but as an angel. Now imagine that these monks don't believe in any gods that are on their side - they do believe in gods, beings that are of a higher order than Michael, but all the gods they think exist are out to get mankind, and Michael leads a heroic effort against them, angel fighting against gods, hopelessly outclassed and yet somehow - impossibly, irrationally, inspirationally - holding his own.