"Agnostic" Marines

[Fellend]

Well that is just twisting our words. Saying they don't think of him as a god BECAUSE means exactly that. We provide examples or why it is so. Not just because the fluff tells is that the space marine does not believe that he is a god but also because comparing it straight of with modern day religion doesn't work.

For one thing the Emperor does exist. His miracles are real, the legion of the damned appear out of nowhere when they are needed. People survive orbital bombardment by faith alone and he grants superpowers through visions.
So praying to the Emperor for faith and strenght to fight a bloodthrister can be compared to asking your father to beat up that bully that keeps hitting you. Unlike "God" the Emperor might actually smite the bloodthirsters, (more likely fill you with holy rage and make you do it). That does not make Him a God. That makes Him the most powerful psyker to ever have existed. And that is a example for every space marine. He is a warrior that can fight death by will alone, He is an example above all examples. He is the shield and the protector. But even so, He is a man and even though He posess divine qualities He is not a god.

It makes me think of the quote "technology is magic for the unenlightened" Just as the Emperor appears to be a god for the mortal men, the more enlightened and those closer to Him can see that He is infact a man. A man worthy of prayer, your devotion and faith but still a man.


Taken from lexicanum who in turn took it from an article posted in White Dwarf
0400 - Morning Prayer - Led by the Company Chaplain the Space Marines renew their oaths to the Emperor and the company relics are displayed. This time is also used to give out orders, announcements and other administrative tasks.

Also taken from lexicanum: unknown original source
The precepts of the Imperial Cult, called the Imperial Creed, include the belief that all of humanity must be brought into the Imperium, the abhorrence of aliens, the realization that psykers and mutation among humanity is a dire threat which must be controlled. All of these precepts have their origins with what the Emperor himself preached during the Great Crusade.

While the ordinary citizen believes that the Emperor has always been venerated as an immortal and omnipotent god, this was not always the case. At the beginning of the Emperor's Great Crusade the Imperium functioned very differently. Firstly there was no Ecclesiarchy and the veneration of the Emperor, in the form of a cult known as the Lectitio Divinitatus, was frowned upon. The official Imperial doctrine was that the Emperor was an extremely powerful being, rightful ruler of all mankind, and the perfect image of humanity, but no matter how supreme, still a human being. During the Great Crusade however, many ordinary Imperial citizens found that the light of reason and truth brought by the Emperor was not enough, and they took to worshiping him as a deity1.

The Emperor became an object of general veneration following the Horus Heresy and his internment within the Golden Throne on Terra. Over the following decades many individual Imperial cults sprang up throughout the Imperium, with their central theme being the redemption of humanity through the Emperor's self-sacrifice. After a few hundred years a single cult known as the Ecclesiarchy was formed from the unification of a number of smaller cults, which gradually absorbed the main body of believers. In M32 this cult became the official religion of the Imperium, gaining the title of Adeptus Ministorum. Remaining cults were persecuted and mostly destroyed.



As you can see. Originally (and still among the space marines) He's not worshiped as a God but as a supreme human being to which all shall aspire and obey.

Note on chaplains and the Emperor (yep lexicanum)
Each Chapter has its own unique cult, which is often thousands of years old. As these cults often predate the rise of the Ecclesiarchy and the general worship of the Emperor, the Chapter cults are not simply facets of the common Imperial cult of the Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarchy and its parishioners (its lay followers) worship the Emperor as the most divine god. Although the reverence Space Marines have for the Emperor borders on actual worship, he is supposedly not seen as an actual god by some, but as a brilliant and inspirational man. As in all things, this view of the Emperor's divine status or lack thereof varies from Chapter to Chapter. The Space Marine cults are more ancient than the cult of the Ecclesiarchy, and their specific practices often primitive and barbaric. The chapter's own Primarch is also a major part of the Chapter's specific cult, revered as much as the Emperor.

Within a Chapter's fortress-monastery is the Reclusiam, a large chamber devoted to cult activities, and where the Chapter's holy relics and, sometimes, the body of its Primarch, are housed. The Chaplains lead their sermons from here, and rouse the Marines in their love of the Emperor. The battle barges and ships of the Chapter's fleet also include huge cathedrals in the heart of each ship, allowing the Space Marines to pray while away from the fortress. Chaplains always lead the Space Marines in prayer, but a Chaplain is not always needed for a Marine to pray.

This is all I can find atm (it's 02.00 give me a break) but yeah. Space marines are mostly agnostic, they just love their grandfather

[Just_Me]

As a general rule, we are given to believe that Astartes venerate the Emperor, but (most) do not see him as a "god." What this means specifically is very difficult to pin down (as this thread has shown), and probably varies from chapter to chapter. Most likely this is some sort of philosophical atavism, chapters have long memories, and some of the most ancient ones may have traditions passed down from generation to generation that recall, in some dim form, the Emperor's original mandate was a secular atheistic one and forbid his worship (for the Space Wolves at least Bjorn the Fellhanded could tell them all of that from first hand experience). They may insist that they do not see the Emperor as a "god" as a technicality of sorts (one that they may not even fully understand), even though in every meaningful way they conduct deific worship.

In other cases they may sincerely offer veneration to him without seeing him as a god. Consider, regardless of what country you belong to there are almost invariably traditions associated with that nation's flag, how it must be folded, handled, national anthems, etc. Most of these have all of the trappings of religious ceremony, but who among us would argue that the flag is a god, or even that there is actually anything inherently divine about the cloth itself? Nevertheless we do honor the idea that said cloth embodies with actions and traditions that could quite reasonably be described as worship. In this sense an Astartes might venerate the idea of what the Emperor represents, and what he symbolizes and stands for, even if they do not believe the person of the Emperor to be divine.

In addition, we must separate "superstition" from worship. You may be wary of saying "it can't get any worse" or have a tradition of tapping a doorjam as you leave the locker room to [insert sporting field here], or a soldier may keep the piece of shrapnel that caught in his vest collar instead of ripping out his throat, without being religiously motivated. These actions may be irrational, and may not be motivated by any honest belief that they appease some "fate" or "power," but nevertheless they are strong, and they can offer great comfort. I myself am an atheist and a rationalist, but I still cannot help but "say" a little formless "prayer" in my head when I roll the dice, and I would rather use my own than anyone else's. These actions are for the benefit of one's own peace of mind, rather than for some other force. In such a way an Astartes might say a benediction, asking that the Emperor guide himself and his brothers in the battle without believing that this means anything to the Emperor, or even that the Emperor is divine, but taking comfort in the act of saying it as a reassurance of his commitment.

Finally, the Greco-Roman hero cult format that has been pointed out is a very good analogy to what I would imagine the Astartes worship of the Emperor to be. And the parallel of most animistic faiths to 40k is very strong, particularly where the Mechanicus is concerned.

To my mind the underlying issue here is one of how do you define "god?" If the defining characteristic is simply a being of vast power, far beyond that of even the greatest of normal men, then by any rational argument you must say that the Emperor is a god; he does have vast powers, and he literally can "hear" and sometimes even answer "prayers." The issue is that we are so caught up in a Judeo-Christian definition of "god" that we believe that there must be something inherently "special" (and poorly defined) about a being with the label of "god."

It's an old sci-fi [URL="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SufficientlyAdvancedAlien"]trope[/URL]; even though you have powers that let you part the red sea, make and unmake matter at will, and reshape reality at your whim, you are not a "god." But really, why the hell not? if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, why shouldn't I conclude that it is in fact, a duck? At some point the question becomes moot, and, all theological debate aside, the Emperor is a god because he has all the powers of a god.

[Freefall945]

Nabertayl: I'm perfectly capable of thinking of things in non-Christian terms (what is with the condescension in this thread?) but -any- analogy to Christian (or Jewish, or Muslim) theology breaks down over the oppositional element because in such Monotheisms there is no competition between Good and Evil - Good is Good, and will always win, and Evil is twisted, spiteful, and destined to lose. Evil in 40k is not only competitive but seems fated for victory.

As for the Zeus Vs Hercules idea, the only real division you've presented between Zeus and Hercules is that Hercules is, on some kind of nonspecific level, less powerful than a God, and isn't directly called one. Since we're not sweating the nomenclature, we basically agree here - the Space Marines think of the Emperor as a great fellow, far away, who defies death and battles evil with his cosmic power in some fashion, and co-incidentally defines righteousness. This is the -same way- that people historically consider gods in many cases. Space Marines might not use the word -except when they say God-Emperor, which I am willing to concede "doesn't count" being as the term is so ubiquitous in the Imperium.

Fellend: The problem with your arguement is that you don't seem to explicitly express what you think a God is. Your only given qualification for something to be a God is that it must not exist! By such logic, if I was to play D&D, the gods in it exist and actively intervene in the affairs of mortals and are therefore not gods but powerful men! Additionally, I know a lot of Christians who would be offended by the suggestion that their God doesn't perform miracles, never walked on earth, and doesn't give powers through visions.

I'm aware of that little piece of lore you've posted and have referred to it - it's reprinted in the 3rd Ed Codex - but that doesn't change the fact that depicted marine behavior varies from the smirking athiest warrior which some have tried to paint the marines as.

Additionally, the direct quote you've provided says...

he is supposedly not seen as an actual god by some, but as a brilliant and inspirational man.

Note the "Some" which is exactly what I've saying - it seems to vary from chapter to chapter. I am not speaking in absolutes! I am sure there are marines who are very strict in the way they regard the emperor as simply a man. I'm just saying marines are rarely if ever depicted in such a way, post-heresy.

Just-Me: Excellent summary, though I'm sure most Astartes would kick you in half for suggesting that their prayers to the Emperor might be a deluded self-soothing mechanism and in no way an actual plea to the father in Terra!

[Kahoolin]

Seems to me the problem with this debate is that you guys have all analyzed this far more deeply than any GW writer ever has!

I think it's safe to assume that when a GW writer says "god" they mean something more like a Christian or Islamic conception of god, i.e. a being that is omnipotent, indescribable, cannot be associated with any other being, and perhaps created the universe or whatever. I think this is a safe assumption to make since the GW universe was created and is primarily marketed towards English speakers and Europeans. So it is natural that when the writers use a word they mean what we normally think they would mean by that word. I think if anyone disagrees with this, the onus is on them to show why the GW writers do not mean what we normally mean in a western cultural context when we use the word "god."

So assuming that they do mean what we normally mean, all that it means when a GW writer says "marines do not consider the Emperor a god" is that the marines do not consider the Emperor a god in the same way Christians envision god (which seems to be the sense in which ordinary Imperial citizens understand the Emperor's divinity by the way).

So all the writers are trying to say is that astartes don't normally feel the Emperor to be an eternal being who is always literally watching them and controlling the universe. Other than that they run the gamut of religious expression, though if any of them are atheists, agnostic or nontheistic in a sort of Buddhist sense (as someone has strangely tried to suggest) I would submit that they need their heads examined! Magic and beings of monstrous supernatural power obviously exist in a literal sense in the 40k universe, and marines spend their whole lives fighting them and their servants.

To put it simply, astartes think of the Emperor as a god, but not the sort of god we think of under normal circumstances when we hear the term "god." It's probably much more likely that they consider the Emperor a god in a heroic or polytheistic sense, since, as I said above, they know for a fact other gods exist. They are hardly going to deny the Emperor's supernatural nature when his supernatural power is manifest in his servants every day.

They certainly aren't atheists, agnostics or Buddhists. That would just be silly.

[Fellend]

Fellend: The problem with your arguement is that you don't seem to explicitly express what you think a God is. Your only given qualification for something to be a God is that it must not exist! By such logic, if I was to play D&D, the gods in it exist and actively intervene in the affairs of mortals and are therefore not gods but powerful men! Additionally, I know a lot of Christians who would be offended by the suggestion that their God doesn't perform miracles, never walked on earth, and doesn't give powers through visions.

I'm aware of that little piece of lore you've posted and have referred to it - it's reprinted in the 3rd Ed Codex - but that doesn't change the fact that depicted marine behavior varies from the smirking athiest warrior which some have tried to paint the marines as.

Additionally, the direct quote you've provided says...

Quote:
he is supposedly not seen as an actual god by some, but as a brilliant and inspirational man.

Yes it varies, I'm simply admitting that there are some chapters that venerate Him as a god. With over a thousand chapters with most of them lacking any form of information it would be silly of me to deny the possibility. But all the major chapters do infact not see Him as a god.
And I think your argument is invalid. Because the question if I'm not completely mistaken is not whether the Emperor is a God or not (as pointed out, most likely he is) the question is whether Space marines worship him as a god. And they do In fact not. Besides the loads of stuff I've quoted saying so. Besides the different theories and comparisons with religions from real life the most Important thing here is that it says they do NOT.

No matter how you decide to see thier worship simply fact is that they do not see Him as a God. They pray to him, they venerate him, they see him as the all-father but they KNOW He is just a man. Because they've been taught so. (Read the space wolf book, where the new scout gets shocked by the fact that He isn't a god but infact is a man)

I am not trying to qualify what is or is not a god because it's not relevant. The Emperor most likely is a god as He is surely as powerful as the Chaos Gods (who are as far as we know are gods and nothing else) What is relevant here is whether the space marines believe He is a god. And they do not as pointed out with references and all.

And I don't agree with the fact that they are depicted as worshipping Him as a god. Infact in none of the books I've read do they ever do so. Personally I think Dawn of war two examplifies their belief in Him and themselves with the quote "I am fearless, I am death, I AM INVINCIBLE" this is their faith. The faith in themselves and the Emperor as their protector and father. They have as far as I know never depicted them as worshipping Him as a god.

And whether not God exists or performs miracles I'm not touching with a 20-foot pole

[Nabterayl]

This is all I can find atm (it's 02.00 give me a break) but yeah. Space marines are mostly agnostic, they just love their grandfather

That ... isn't actually agnosticism. Agnostic marines would say, "Well, the Emperor might be a god, and he might not be a god. Frankly, I don't know." That's definitely not the marine attitude.

Nabertayl: I'm perfectly capable of thinking of things in non-Christian terms (what is with the condescension in this thread?) but -any- analogy to Christian (or Jewish, or Muslim) theology breaks down over the oppositional element because in such Monotheisms there is no competition between Good and Evil - Good is Good, and will always win, and Evil is twisted, spiteful, and destined to lose. Evil in 40k is not only competitive but seems fated for victory.

No condescension intended. I'm sorry if I phrased myself poorly. And I'm aware that Abrahamic religions don't make a good cosmological analogy. I really think this is more like a hero cult than anything else. The reason I think hero cults are a useful example is because they belong to a religion that also has gods - the difference between Zeus and Hercules may seem fuzzy to modern eyes, but to a Greek in 700 B.C.E. the difference would have been quite clear.

[Madness]

On the other hand Marines do regard themselves as demigods when compared to "puny" humans. If the emperor is in fact a god and they see themselves as half gods, they might half worship him.

Silly and very banalized explaination, but I trust you can abstract the rest from here.

[Fellend]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellend View Post
This is all I can find atm (it's 02.00 give me a break) but yeah. Space marines are mostly agnostic, they just love their grandfather
That ... isn't actually agnosticism. Agnostic marines would say, "Well, the Emperor might be a god, and he might not be a god. Frankly, I don't know." That's definitely not the marine attitude.

Yeah sorry, it was late. (like it is now actually.) What I meant was that they don't believe in the Emperor as a god. But I don't know if they believe in gods at all. There's as far as I know not any evidence of them believing that the Chaos Gods are gods. They are refered to as ruinous powers an occasionally "your gods". But if you look at the Horus Heresy novels (and assume that their believes haven't changed that much) they aren't actually called gods but beings of the warp.

[Fellend]

On the other hand Marines do regard themselves as demigods when compared to "puny" humans. If the emperor is in fact a god and they see themselves as half gods, they might half worship him.

Silly and very banalized explaination, but I trust you can abstract the rest from here.

Whah? What? You mean because they know they are superior human beings they know that the Emperor is superior to them?

[Madness]

What I mean is that marines perceive themselves to be very close to the emperor, by close I mean "similar to", so it stands to reason that they don't Worship him, but *really* look up to him instead.