Why Do People Have A Problem With Special Characters

[Melissia]

Why are we talking about WFB? WFB's balance is quite dramatically different, in cimparison to 40k's balance.

In the sense that 40k actually has some balance.

[AbusePuppy]

The problem with special characters is when they become an obvious choice. Almost every marine list gets pushed to the next level by Vulkan. He twin-links half the valuable weapons in the codex. Also, he costs pennies more that a generic captain without a heavy flamer and none of his special abilities. I am so tempted to model up a Vulkan and use him. Why not? It will certainly help me win.

The reason I don't is because he is just too good. Any character that is an obvious choice as an HQ takes away from the game. I don't like characters because I don't want to be locked into a certain build to be competitive. If anyone is skeptical, play a generic HQ list against a Vulkan list. Combat tactics won't make you feel better when the Vulkan player is rerolling to pop you tanks and roast your troops.

Vulkan may seem like an "obvious choice," but the truth is he's actually not all that amazing. You have to have a very special build for him to really be worthwhile, and even then you are giving up the option to have much long-ranged firepower in your army in return for added close-range ability. Space Wolves and SoB both do that better than vanilla marines do. I'm not saying he's bad- far from it, he can be a powerful tool in the right army, but he is far from an auto-include even in "standard" SM builds.

(And comparing Vulkan to a tricked-out Captain will always be a losing proposition for the latter, because Vulk gets a discount due to his inability to customize gear. A captain can ride a bike, or fly, or take various other options- although, to be fair, Vulkan has several of the best ones already- but that ability to pick and choose the gear you want is what captains get out of the deal. You might note that Space Wolves pay an even higher premium for this on their HQs.)


And anyone who thinks GW has any kind of master plan to make the new models they produce have super-good rules in order to sell tons of them: Pyrovore. Thunderfire Cannon. Tervigon. Storm Raven. What was that again?

[Melissia]

I wouldn't know about the pyrovore (as I ahven't seen it used), but the Thunderfire, Tervigon, and Storm Raven are all qutie damned useful. The Thunderfire Cannon especially has a very strong amount of anti-horde ability.

[Gnoblar with Pointy Stick]

On the one hand S.C.s break the game in Fantasy.
On the other hand Skrag the Slaughterer is the coolest thing ever...



Besides, the way to win WHFB isn't fielding special characters, it's fielding Daemons of Chaos.

And I think it's OK to discuss Fantasy on the 40k Forum a little bit. It certainly isn't being discussed on the Fantasy Forum, and there is enough of a relationship and interplay between the two to warrant some discussion (they do borrow from each other regularly).

As far as S.C.s in 40k, I don't think any of them are balanced enough to complain about. Lists with game breaking special characters are so top-heavy they don't pose much of a threat anyway. For the most part, S.C.s belong in Apocalypse, but if someone wants to sink a quarter of their points into one dude that I can shoot the ghoulies off of on turn one, they can be my guest.

[eagleboy7259]

Vulkan may seem like an "obvious choice," but the truth is he's actually not all that amazing. You have to have a very special build for him to really be worthwhile, and even then you are giving up the option to have much long-ranged firepower in your army in return for added close-range ability. Space Wolves and SoB both do that better than vanilla marines do. I'm not saying he's bad- far from it, he can be a powerful tool in the right army, but he is far from an auto-include even in "standard" SM builds.

(And comparing Vulkan to a tricked-out Captain will always be a losing proposition for the latter, because Vulk gets a discount due to his inability to customize gear. A captain can ride a bike, or fly, or take various other options- although, to be fair, Vulkan has several of the best ones already- but that ability to pick and choose the gear you want is what captains get out of the deal. You might note that Space Wolves pay an even higher premium for this on their HQs.)


And anyone who thinks GW has any kind of master plan to make the new models they produce have super-good rules in order to sell tons of them: Pyrovore. Thunderfire Cannon. Tervigon. Storm Raven. What was that again?

The options argument doesn't really make it for me. OMG Vulkan can't take a bike or a jetpack or terminator armor to teleport? and he's not good unless you build an army specific build out? For the most part, Vulkan has the ideal combat set up, most people won't waste the I5 on a Power Fist and master-crafted digi weaponed relic blade beats any power weapon set up in my book. Usually you can find a way to make him work in your army even without the ability to give him a bike, jetpack or terminator armor. If you really have you're heart set on taking bikes as troops then by all means take a regular company master, of better yet, take Khan on the Moondraken. Sure not being able to deepstrike hurts, but most people deliver their Assault Terminators by means of Land Raider anyhow and Vulkan can simply ride along.

Saying that Vulkan doesn't help the usual SM player is like saying that melta isn't the cat's pajamas of armor popping in 5th ed. Even in a typicall vanilla vanilla SM set up you will include usually around half a dozen Melta type weapons and usually a TH and SS Assault Terminator Squad since they are generally considered the best hammer unit in the book. In retrospect, I would actually like to see the competitive SM army that DOESN'T benefit in some way by taking Vulkan.

[addamsfamily36]

The "narrative" scenario I scripted above used, I believe, 4 special characters: HQ: Lysander (Imperial Fists) HQ: Shrike (I mean, 40k's version of Batman--Raven Guard) Troops: Telion (U-Marines) Heavy Support: Chronus (U-Marines)

4 SC's, 3 chapters, for one skirmish.

Just an additional note on this. I was sifting through the FAQ's earlier and noted that if you take more than one SC only one of their abilities replaces combat tactics. or whatever the term is called. So you have to choose which is the leader lysander over shrike for instance. which then makes the other SC a expensive HQ.

You probably already knew this as does everyone else, but i didn't and thought i would share incase anyone else didn't know either.

[Denzark]

Lets go back to Second edition. 'A Tallarn Army may include Al'Rahem...' 'A Valhallan Army may include Chenkov...'

step forward blah years...

'A SALAMANDER Army may include Hestan...' 'A CADIAN Army may include creed' etc etc

Characters 'unlocking' special powers is dump becuase it takes away from exclusive armies - every vanilla marine with anti armour on the mind has Hestan.

Do you take Kahn because you are White Scars, aka Space Mongols? No because you want your hello kitty marines (or whatever) to have the tactical advantage of outflanking etc.

Lets put a stop to it 6th ed, please.

[eagleboy7259]

Lets go back to Second edition. 'A Tallarn Army may include Al'Rahem...' 'A Valhallan Army may include Chenkov...'

step forward blah years...

'A SALAMANDER Army may include Hestan...' 'A CADIAN Army may include creed' etc etc

Characters 'unlocking' special powers is dump becuase it takes away from exclusive armies - every vanilla marine with anti armour on the mind has Hestan.

Do you take Kahn because you are White Scars, aka Space Mongols? No because you want your hello kitty marines (or whatever) to have the tactical advantage of outflanking etc.

Lets put a stop to it 6th ed, please.

You know I wanted to say "Nah it's adding something to the game at this point, whether thats favorable or not depends on fair pricing and effect. Every army book has balancing issues and some level of brokeness that will be abused by players on the competitive level. If SC's were given fair pricing in comparison to their effect than the number of people upset would drop considerably." but then again I had a thought, you CAN'T price Vulkan fairly. That kind of advantage should be paid for on a unit basis and not as a one time fee associated with a mandatory unit in the FOC. That's were the problem is. If you paid a couple of points every time you wanted to twin-link a MM or master craft a hammer then you wouldn't see such abuse. That's why you see 30 meltas in a 2000pt list, because there's nothing stopping you from doing it after you bought Vulkan.

[Kahoolin]

But then again I had a thought, you CAN'T price Vulkan fairly. That kind of advantage should be paid for on a unit basis and not as a one time fee associated with a mandatory unit in the FOC. That's were the problem is. If you paid a couple of points every time you wanted to twin-link a MM or master craft a hammer then you wouldn't see such abuse. That's why you see 30 meltas in a 2000pt list, because there's nothing stopping you from doing it after you bought Vulkan.

That's genius. If the rule was something like "an army led by Vulkan may twin-link all meltas for 10 points per unit" then there wouldn't be a problem.

In fact that's how Chenkov works in the IG dex. You have to pay extra on your conscripts to get Send In The Next Wave, and you can't get the option to do so unless you have Chenkov.