BA 2000 Point Tourny List

[Sir Biscuit]

I was asked by a friend to help put together a 2000 point BA list for a tourny coming up.

HQ
Chapter Master Gabriel Seth
Honour Guard
+Chapter Banner
+Powerfist
+2 Combi-Meltas

Elites
2 Sanguinary Priests
+2 Powerfists

Troops
Assault squad
+5 Marines
+Powerfist
+2 Meltaguns
Assault squad
+5 Marines
+Powerfist
+2 Meltaguns
Assault squad
+4 Marines
+Powerfist
+Meltagun
-Jump Packs
+Rhino
Assault squad
+3 Marines
+Powerfist
+Meltagun
-Jump Packs
+Rhino

Fast Attack
Baal Predator
+Hunter-Killer Missile
Baal Predator
+Hunter-Killer Missile
Baal Predator
+Hunter-Killer Missile

Heavy Support
Stormraven Gunship
+TL Multi-Melta
+TL Plasma Cannon
+Extra Armor

Comes to 1886, there is 14 points I'm not sure what to do with. Looking like searchlights on the vehicles, and one more hunter-killer on a Rhino.

Tactics: Seth & Co. are in the Stormraven. Priests are in the Rhino assault squads.

Jump Pack Assault Squads start in reserve, everything else is on the table. Against more shooty armies, when going second, I'd start everything in reserve with Baal's outflanking.

The goal with the Baal's is to cripple mobility. With the scout move+first turn move, or coming in from outflank, it's not difficult for them to get side shots. But even if they can't manage side shots they can still mess up transports, and once the enemy doesn't have mobility this list gets really vicious.

The Jump Assault Squads should try to stay in reserve until the Rhino squads get close, then dive right in. With the Priests+Honor Guard, the army has 3 12" circles of FNP and Furious Charge, and it's not hard to keep all 45 marines in the list within that.

Seth and Honor guard buddies are a surprise assault package. People really underestimate the chapter master of the Flesh Tearers, but his honor guard puts out sixteen S5 attacks and TEN S9 attacks on the charge with him. Really fun to go Dread/MC hunting with this. The Stormraven gets them where they need to go then zooms around and blows up surviving transports.

So, thoughts?

[zealotic]

I would try to get some more anti-horde in there, maybe put the hurricane bolter side-sponsons on that storm raven, otherwise just flamers.

[Tynskel]

1) why have combi-meltas on the honour guard? Functionally, the meltagun and combi-melta are same price, but the meltagun can fire over n' over.
2) 1 Baal w/ Hunter Killer = 1 Furioso- since you are paying for the stormraven, and the price includes the added Transport Capacity, why not exchange one baal for the furioso.
3) The way the baals are equipped, you are using them as anti-tank.
Switch the other two baals to predator destructors (costing 20 points) and ditch one assault marine (-18) points. The pred destructors with lascannon sponsons are more effective at light to medium armor, and slightly better than the assault cannon at armor 14. And, you have the same amount of shots vs infantry, but better AP and Str. The Pred Dest is a better deal unless you equip the Baal with Hv Bolter/Flamer Sponsons.
4) Flush out one rhino squad out to 10 marines, and switch the meltagun to 2 flamers, and change the powerfist to a power weapon.
5) Hack one assault marine squad down to 5 marines. Switch Powerfist to power weapon, and Meltagun to flamer.
6) Add one jump pack to a sanguinary priest.

New List could look like this:

HQ 350
160 Gabriel Seth
Chapter Master
190 Honour Guard
Chapter Banner, 2 Meltaguns, Powerfist

ELITES 300
175 Sanguinary Priesthood
2 Sanguinary Priests, 1 Jump Pack, 2 Powerfists
125 Furioso
Dreadnought, Blood Talons

Hv SUPPORT 485
215 Stormraven Gunship
Twin- Multi-Meltas, Twin-Plasma Cannons, Extra Armor
135 Predator Destructor
Lascannon Sponsons
135 Predator Destructor
Lascannon Sponsons

TROOPS 865
235 Assault Squad
10 Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Powerfist
235 Assault Squad
10 Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Powerfist
245 Assault Squad
10 Marines, 2 Flamers, Twin-Lightning Claws
Dedicated Transport: Rhino
150 Assault Squad
5 Marines, Flamer, Power Weapon, Hand Flamer
Dedicated Transport: Razorback

You now have a balanced approach to both CC and anti-tank:

Anti-Tank
2 Predator Destructos, 2 Flying Assault Squads with Meltas with a Sanguinary Priest, Gabriel Seth and Honour Guard
Back up- anti-tank:
Stormraven, Blood Talon Furioso

Anti-Infantry
2 Ground Assault Squads with 4 flamers, power weapon, and Lightning Claws with a Sanguinary Priest, Blood Taloned Furioso
Back up- anti-infantry
Gabriel Seth and Honour Guard, Two Flying Assault Squads, and the Stormraven

[cuboidironcod]

I would drop the powerfists from your sanguinary priests and just go with power weapons; also give 'em jump packs to keep up with your actual assault squads. Also on your more "shooty" assault squads just go with power weapons, and if you can squeeze the points from somewhere put an infernus pistol on 'em for another melta shot. I would agree with putting in a furioso. But since it's a 2,000 point list why not try and go with more storm ravens and use them as a very fast, mobile troop trans/anti vehicle units. just a thought.

[Sir Biscuit]

I don't like the idea of a bunch of storm ravens, because honestly I don't think it will work. The Storm Raven is very expensive, fragile, and carries expensive deadly units. It's a huge flying target. I think one works when you present enough ranged threats that people are willing to ignore it, but fielding three means that you can't afford distraction units.

I've squeezed out what points I can. Honestly, when it comes down to a decision of sarge with powerweapon/infernus pistol versus powerfist, I'll take the powerfist every time. A squad that close to the enemy really benefits from the higher strength melee more.

1) why have combi-meltas on the honour guard? Functionally, the meltagun and combi-melta are same price, but the meltagun can fire over n' over.
2) 1 Baal w/ Hunter Killer = 1 Furioso- since you are paying for the stormraven, and the price includes the added Transport Capacity, why not exchange one baal for the furioso.
3) The way the baals are equipped, you are using them as anti-tank.
Switch the other two baals to predator destructors (costing 20 points) and ditch one assault marine (-18) points. The pred destructors with lascannon sponsons are more effective at light to medium armor, and slightly better than the assault cannon at armor 14. And, you have the same amount of shots vs infantry, but better AP and Str. The Pred Dest is a better deal unless you equip the Baal with Hv Bolter/Flamer Sponsons.
4) Flush out one rhino squad out to 10 marines, and switch the meltagun to 2 flamers, and change the powerfist to a power weapon.
5) Hack one assault marine squad down to 5 marines. Switch Powerfist to power weapon, and Meltagun to flamer.
6) Add one jump pack to a sanguinary priest.

1.) Didn't see that meltagun was an option. Thanks for pointing that out.
2.) I didn't want to because, honestly, it makes what is already an enormous target much bigger. It's already pushing close to 500 points with two HQ's in it, and if I add a dreadnought I feel like I won't be able to distract my opponents firepower enough for it to survive. That being said, I do see a case for the Furioso, and wouldn't mind an exchange, it just means that the SR has to deepstrike.
3.) TBH I think sponsons are a waste on Baal's, but that's neither here nor there. I didn't realize the HS Predator was so cheap with the las sponsons. I'm willing to playtest it but also a bit wary, one of the big draws of the Baal is that it is so in-your-face that it distracts people and means the rhino's take less fire.
4.) Any particular reason for a switch to flamers? I figured a furious charge from those guys would be enough to thin out hordes, and they would need the meltaguns against the meched up environment, so they can transport bust and assault the squad inside. In my experience, being able to reliably pop a transport so you can melee inside is MUCH more important than getting a good flamer shot. I suppose it's a matter of taste.
5.) Nothing to say
6.) I'm not a big fan of the sangunary priest in the assault squads, once again, because it raises their target priority too much. The idea is to have each jump squad team with a rhino squad, so they can all benefit from the grail yet still maintain some mobility. Since the jump squads will most likely be DS in, and the rhino squads are fast, it's not a huge problem to keep them together. In addition, only one rhino having a priest means that either I will have to hide that rhino behind the other one, or I will present my opponent with an obvious first turn target. The redundancy protects against that.

Updated list:
HQ
Chapter Master Gabriel Seth
Honour Guard
+Chapter Banner
+Powerfist
+2 Meltaguns

Elites
2 Sanguinary Priests
+2 Powerswords
Furioso Dreadnought
+Blood Talons
+Heavy flamer
+Searchlight

Troops
Assault squad
+5 Marines
+Powerfist
+2 Meltaguns
Assault squad
+5 Marines
+Powerfist
+2 Meltaguns
Assault squad
+4 Marines
+Powerfist
+Meltagun
-Jump Packs
+Rhino
+Searchlight
Assault squad
+3 Marines
+Powerfist
+Meltagun
-Jump Packs
+Rhino
+Searchlight

Heavy Support
Stormraven Gunship
+TL Multi-Melta
+TL Plasma Cannon
+Extra Armor
+Searchlight
Predator
+Lascannon Sponsons
Predator
+Lascannon Sponsons

Thanks for the ideas, I'll give it a run tomorrow and let ya'll know how it goes.

[Tynskel]

I suggested the flamers for the horde based armies-- of course the recommended changes I made are coherent with each other.

The extra meltaguns will be nice, but with the long range firepower of the 2 predators combined with two flying assault squads on anti-tank, I figure you can spare some marines for dedicated infantry smashing.

[blackarmchair]

and slightly better than the assault cannon at armor 14.

Totally false, not to call ya out or anything. An Assault Cannon is BY FAR the best Imperial anti-tank weapon aside from the Melta.

A single Lascannon will achieve 0.1 Pens or 0.1 Glancing hits on a Land Raider whereas an Assault Cannon will score 0.40 Pens and 0.1 Glancing hits. It's ridiculous how awesome those things still are.

[Tynskel]

Totally false, not to call ya out or anything. An Assault Cannon is BY FAR the best Imperial anti-tank weapon aside from the Melta.

A single Lascannon will achieve 0.1 Pens or 0.1 Glancing hits on a Land Raider whereas an Assault Cannon will score 0.40 Pens and 0.1 Glancing hits. It's ridiculous how awesome those things still are.

Baal
4 (number of shots)*.888 (Chance to hit) *1/6*1/3 (chance to pen)= # Pens for assault Cannons: .197
Destructor
2 (number of shots)*2/3 (chance to hit)*1/6 (chance to pen)= # of Pens for Pred Destructor: .222

No, the Destructor is better.
One Lascannon Vs Assault cannon, sure you are right--- but since when does a FAST predator only shoot 1 Lascannon?
Then you throw in armor 13- the Autocannon starts doing damage-- as you approach armor 10, the Destructor just goes up in value.
Penetration Vs the Pesky Armor 12 of the Leafblower
4*.888*1/6=0.592 Baal Loses
2*2/3*1/6 + 2*2/3*1/2= 0.888 Destructor Wins

In fact, the Baal stays the same vs 11 and 12-- so its value starts dropping significantly.
2*2/3*1/3 + 2*2/3*2/3 = 1.333 vs 0.592

If you want dedicated anti-tank- you take the Destructor or annihilator. If you want back-up anti-tank, then the Baal comes in. However, the Destructor is almost as good at anti-infantry, if the baal is only armed with an assault cannon.

[BrPrometheus]

1. The Ba'al has the effectiveness above while it is moving 12." The predator is moving 6" or less. Though it has a significant more range (this makes them about even in my book).
2. The Ba'al with just the assualt cannon is 20 point cheaper than the predator with lascannon sponsons. making it 15% cheaper. This compensates for the slightly less effectiveness at armor 13 and 14.

I agree that against other armors though the predator earns it spots though the statistics are slightly off (not enough to matter but for those that truly care you cannot simply take the number of shots multiplied by the chance of a success to detirmine total probability of success - true statistics requires you to find the number of failurs to derive the number of successes and then divide that by the total number of possible outcomes I used to know the excel spreadsheet function that got you that but I have forgotten it. Still it is close enough for comparison purposes i just had to go especially geeky on this message for some reason).