Problems with Devastators and Thundefire Cannons?

[DarkLink]

The segeants are always the first to go, so Dev. squads come with a built-in spare wound. Why add extra wounds when you could put the points towards another Dev. squad (or Vindicators for tightly packed enemies)?

Because that one wound runs out really, really quick. Which means that heavy weapons start dropping really really quick.

[Judge]

In most cases, my preferred Heavy Weapon is the rocket launcher - 10 points. Say you've got a Long Fang pack with 5 rocket launchers? 140 points, with a spare wound in the sergeant (though this one has a function). Buffo was proud of Dark Lances? Shoot - here's 15 rockets for 420 points.

Each heavy weapon is a mere 25 points. A spare, otherwise useless, wound marine is 15 points. You're saying it's better spend 30-60 points on spare wounds for the rockets when you could have another 3-6 rockets to stick on other marines instead? Pass thanks. Don't plan for any part of any unit to be useless, or even redundant, unless you're out of other, inherently effective units to spend points on. There really aren't that many weapons that will hit (as many longer-ranged weapons will target more expensive squads) Devastators, as they're usually in the back, and often in cover. After all, who's going to spend a round of shooting their own 5 man Devastator squad at yours (killing ~2 if they're in cover) when they could disable or destroy a more (seemingly) threatening Dreadnaught instead?

[DarkLink]

In most cases, my preferred Heavy Weapon is the rocket launcher - 10 points. Say you've got a Long Fang pack with 5 rocket launchers? 140 points, with a spare wound in the sergeant (though this one has a function). Buffo was proud of Dark Lances? Shoot - here's 15 rockets for 420 points.

Each heavy weapon is a mere 25 points. A spare, otherwise useless, wound marine is 15 points. You're saying it's better spend 30-60 points on spare wounds for the rockets when you could have another 3-6 rockets to stick on other marines instead? Pass thanks. Don't plan for any part of any unit to be useless, or even redundant, unless you're out of other, inherently effective units to spend points on. There really aren't that many weapons that will hit (as many longer-ranged weapons will target more expensive squads) Devastators, as they're usually in the back, and often in cover. After all, who's going to spend a round of shooting their own 5 man Devastator squad at yours (killing ~2 if they're in cover) when they could disable or destroy a more (seemingly) threatening Dreadnaught instead?

Normal Marine devastators are slightly more expensive. Well, maybe not the missile launchers (not sure on the comparative prices), but other weapons are.

Plus, if your other heavy slots are taken and you've only got one dev squad, then you can't fit any more weapons in the squad. Your only real upgrade choice is to add a wound or two if you feel it appropriate.

[Judge]

Heavy Bolters are cheaper; Lascannons are atrociously more expensive. I could see taking extra wounds to protect a 40 point / model investment (although I'd wonder why you were wasting that many points on a squad when a Vindicator could do the same job for less).

Same Long Fang squad - 245 points for 5 lascannons, sergeant, 2 spare wounds. You could have 2 Vindicators for less.

[RocketRollRebel]

Heavy Bolters are cheaper; Lascannons are atrociously more expensive. I could see taking extra wounds to protect a 40 point / model investment (although I'd wonder why you were wasting that many points on a squad when a Vindicator could do the same job for less).

Same Long Fang squad - 245 points for 5 lascannons, sergeant, 2 spare wounds. You could have 2 Vindicators for less.

wow BA lc are 25pts... awkward.

[Bean]

And my Exorcists can EASILY wipe out a five-man squad with one salvo, especially if they aren't in cover.

An Exorcist which kills five models in one shot is getting extremely lucky.

Point in fact, an Exorcist only has a 0.0372 (3.72%) probability of wiping a five-man squad of marines--without cover. That's hardly "easily." =P

You might hit that roughly-one-out-of-27 chance frequently, but that speaks primarily about how lucky you are--it says little about the Exorcist.

[Judge]

"If you're keeping score and you lose, you've got no one to blame but yourself."

[AirHorse]

I personally think people slight exagerate how vulnerable devastators are, you only have to glance a pred or a vindi and its unable to shoot. The main drawback for devastators over a tank is that they are vulnerable to small arms fire, but I find that it takes a few turns before you get there because of their range and as space marines they still have to draw a pretty reasonable amount of fire to be brought down. I also find four missile launchers particularily effective when compared to the autocannons and heavy bolters of my preds, so even though they are more expensive you get what you pay for if you use em right.

I personally like using a devastator squad with four missile launchers. I also run two autocannon predators, so they arent normally the first target for long range firepower which lets them get off a couple of barrages. And even if they are targetted, then my preds have less chance of getting glanced or destroyed. Sometimes if one of my tactical squads is going to be on the defensive ill use their rhinos for the devs and have the tactical squads get out of sight instead.

[codiddy]

Same Long Fang squad - 245 points for 5 lascannons, sergeant, 2 spare wounds. You could have 2 Vindicators for less.

the difference is those devastators are going to be able to shoot until they are all dead. They don't have to be worried about being shaken or stunned.

Also why would you treat the sergeant as just an extra wound? he has a signum. Do you not like to hit on 2's?

[Inquisitor Soren]

In my expierence Devs seem to be overlooked for other targets. Five marines is just as vulnerable, in most cases, as a predator. Though the Pred is much cheaper in general it seems that people ignore the Five Missiles in cover for the tank running itself down their throats. Then again I don't play Marines and can only offer what I have personally seen, and I am by no means great at 40k. I prefer the fluff and the painting more than playing, odd I know.

As for Thunders? I have to say I love every aspect of them, I proxied up three for a Apoclypse game at one point and loved how they were ignored as they rained holes into the Orks lines, it was beautiful. I would say if you're lucky with scatter die they could be decent even for dealing with light armor vehicles as well as hordes and even some of the smaller MCs. Heck even when they die is the Techmarine not a IC? If so slap him to another squad and bam, insta powerfist added to the squad! If not? No loss, send him to go repair the damaged long range Dreadnought that has been 'disarmed'. Heck he even gives you a free upgrade to cover as well. Now is there a better pick for 100pts in the SM codex? No joke is there?