Should I stay or should I go now? - The EU Referendum Thread

[Psychosplodge]

Sorry, I get what you mean now, I don't know why I didn't read it like that.

Britain (England especially) has been a multicultural society pretty much since forever

Mystery I googled "pre war population make up UK" because people always make your statement or something similar and I wondered how accurate it was. IDK how accurate [URL="http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefingpaper/document/48"]this[/URL] is, but I recognise that migration watch gets quoted on the BBC occasionally so possibly somewhat reliable?

If I was guessing, I'd suggest your statement was more accurate for London and large port towns.

In terms of immigration I just don't see the current numbers as feasible to absorb, the infrastructure simply isn't there, regardless of any other argument about it.

[Mr Mystery]

There's also the jobs that are attractive to Migrants to consider. Never mind the NHS as an entity....our entire medical industry could hit the skids.

The Out campaign seem to suggest that we can leave Europe, yet still benefit from the perks associated with membership - all the good, none of the bad. But can't explain how we might achieve that.

As CG says, our exports are likely to suffer, unless we can negotiated mutually beneficial trade agreements. Could we achieve that? Well, I guess. But I for one need to know how we intend to wrangle those.

And my biggest concern? Such a massive decision is being played out as a Tory Civil War - everyone wants to replace Cameron, either personally or with their chosen buddy. So there's a lot of sideshow nonsense going on affecting the chances of an open, rational debate - they're too busy trying to discredit their opponent rather than the arguments.

Much as I can't stand Cameron, I think he made en error of judgement in declaring he won't be PM for a third term before the Referendum was run. He's painted a target on his back. Holding the Referendum is a good thing though - if only to shut people up, one way or the other. I think he's played a blinder in that respect (Tories are bad, but effing hell, UKIP are far worse!).

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Sorry, I get what you mean now, I don't know why I didn't read it like that.



Mystery I googled "pre war population make up UK" because people always make your statement or something similar and I wondered how accurate it was. IDK how accurate [URL="http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefingpaper/document/48"]this[/URL] is, but I recognise that migration watch gets quoted on the BBC occasionally so possibly somewhat reliable?

If I was guessing, I'd suggest your statement was more accurate for London and large port towns.

In terms of immigration I just don't see the current numbers as feasible to absorb, the infrastructure simply isn't there, regardless of any other argument about it.

Infrastructure isn't the fault of migration though - it's the result of decades of mismanagement. Not enough homes being built because too many pudgy fingers in the Buy To Let market. People are too hung up on their precious house price - never mind that those most opposed already have massive equity, so even a 20-30% crash in house prices won't bloody affect them in the slightest. Deliberate and systematic underfunding of our social support, including the NHS and Education.

[Wolfshade]

I don't have a massively strong view on this.

I work in an executive agency of the government so my prospects are unaffected by the change.

Whenever you import items into a market you have to make sure that they pass all the local laws so a minimum manufacturing specification would have to be met anyway.

We are outside the open border so that won't really affect things.

The one thing to bear in mind for me is that the EU is our single biggest trading partner. Now I doubt that we would end up with a "Swiss" arrangement given the size of our economy compared to those on the edge of Europe.

But could we negotiate trade arrangements? Certainly, don't forget the amount we export to India which we don't have a free trade agreement.

I suppose the question is, would any short term loss be out weighed by a long term gain?

[grimmas]

I urge you all to look up the TTIP the Independent have done a good set of articles on it (and they are politically independent). Basically itbmeans not just handing sovereignty to the EU but also the EU handing some of it to large US corporations.

It's the reason Barak was getting all choppsy. If the last 100 years have taught us anything if the US is really keen on something it's because it's good for them and bugger everyone else.

[Psychosplodge]

[url]http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ttip-leaks-shocking-what-are-they-eu-us-deal-a7010121.html[/url]

[url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/ttip-could-cause-an-nhs-sell-off-and-parliament-would-be-powerless-to-stop-it-says-leading-union-a7006471.html[/url]

[url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/ttip-nhs-privatisation-jeremy-hunt-junior-doctors-strike-obama-isds-a7001691.html[/url]

If anyone was in any doubt out is the only way to save the NHS.

[Mr Mystery]

Well?........No. Not at all.

Look at the proposed TTIP. Have a good read, and pay heed to the warnings.

Bad, huh?

Now that's a negotiated trade deal when we're in Europe. It still has to be ratified, and it may not happen in the end.

Next, consider that the Out Campaign are now reassuring us we can get our own trade deals. Which is of course true - of course we can get our own trade deals.

But look back at the TTIP. That's the result of Europe's collective bargaining power. And it's kind of looking like we might be getting the ****ty end of the stick, if it's put into practice.

Back to reality. You think we're gonna get a ****ty deal in Europe, just imagine how much ****tier it will be when it's the UK against the USA. Or UK against China. Or UK against Russia. We simply do not have the muscle to get the good end of the negotiations.

So TTIP is bad - but the Out Campaign have not, will not, and frankly cannot explain how we'll get things our way outside of Europe.

As for the NHS? Tories and UKIP make up the backbone of the Out Campaign. And they're not exactly parties one can consider a friend to the NHS...

[Psychosplodge]

No individuals make up out not parties, apart from UKIP which has individuals from all sides (but was clearly founded by tories) or it wouldn't challenge labour in the North( apparently there was double digit differences in the last council elctions which is unheard of when anything with a red ribbon normally wins most of SY)

No that's not bargaining Mystery, that's people lining their own pockets as usual.

The In campaign seem to be forgetting we're not some tinpot backwater either, we're what the fifth largest economy? People will want to continue to trade.

And you're right Mr. Hunt is clearly currently doing his best to wreck it.

[Haighus]

TTIP doesn't benefit the US either though frankly, not the US people anyway. It really only benefits massive corporations and big industry, and having just been reading a bit on it, looks like the most corrupt thing to be happening in Europe at the moment, by far. Sadly, I don't think Brexit would make much of a difference, the UK would likely be sucked into it regardless, or end up in it's own corrupt agreement with the US that is even more unfavourable than TTIP- if the entirety of Europe (sort of)* is struggling to negotiate a favourable deal, I don't see how Britain alone would be able to. The UK would probably go crawling to the US and get some sh***y deal full of ISDS and practically make the UK into a corporation-run pit, or be left without any sort of trade agreement.

I don't know why the negotiations are even still ongoing- Germany doesn't like it, France doesn't like it, the UK doesn't like it, people all over Europe don't like it. Just goes to show how much wealth and money allows industry to circumnavigate democracy.

*It seems to just be the European Commission and industry heads negotiating, not any of the actual countries with a stake in this.

[Psychosplodge]

yes the commission, that shining beacon of democracy.

You do realise we already trade with the US without any special arrangements right?

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we are not lowering standards in the TTIP-negotiatons,

[Morgrim]

There is no country on the planet whose citizens benefit from the TTIP. I invite anyone to give me some evidence that statement is wrong, I've yet to find any. It's big business trying to form their own cosy international law, and screw everyone else.

Europe are absolute idiots if they pass it, and if they do so it'll be because of corruption. Ditto if the UK passes it on their own. Quitting the EU won't affect that decision overall though, the UK it already being buttered up over it.