Should I stay or should I go now? - The EU Referendum Thread

[Psychosplodge]

And what's so wrong with a hung Parliament?

If no-one has a clear majority, we might get actual, proper debates about the actual merits of a proposed Act of Parliament, rather than the ideological mudslinging nonsense we have now.
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Nothing if that's what would actually happen. If you believe that would be the outcome then you have more faith than me in our politicians.
I see a system where you end up with either labour or tories permanently propped up by fringe parties (which we would see more of), and it impossible to get rid of disgraced MPs because the party still keeps chucking them on the list somewhere rather than not standing them when they're being specifically voted for.

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But it more accurately represents the will of the people. It's what, 60% of the population are governed by seats held by Tory MPs that only 26% voted for. But in practice, 100% of us are governed by them because they have the majority and are thus In Power? How is that an ideal system for the voting populace?

And it was no doubt similar when labour were running things, but when they pissed off the country enough enough seats changed hands to change the government. Not forced to change as much with PR.

[Denzark]

We voted for f*cking MEPs, it's not my fault 1/3rd of them were UKIP MEPs who refused to represent us! Did you miss the ballot papers for the MEPs?

Read the question before you answer mate - I'm not on about ours - I'm on about the ones from other countries. I mentioned 2 countries and 2 different organs of the EU - both massively lacking in accountability to the UK electorate.

What have we given to the world in the last twenty years? What will be the legacy of this period of British history? The one I'll be painted in with along with all the others.

Well are you discounting international aid? Billions and Billions of it? Are you saying that's not appreciated? I mean I would personally cancel it 100% but you seem to be arguing it is ineffective. Oh you don't want the military campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq to be positives? More girls in school in Afghanistan, less infant mortality? Ever had an Iraqi come up to you in Iraq, shake your hand and thank you for your country getting rid of Saddam? I have. Oh they're crap examples are they? What about all those soldiers, sailors and airmen who signed up expecting a risk to their lives - but not from an Ebola epidemic they went to help with? FFS. Just because you personally may not have been privy to any outside influence in the world besides buying responsibly farmed fair trade quinoa and getting hipster jackets from Oxfam and putting your change in the pot doesn't mean that goes for the entire nation. Have you ever heard the expression 'blood and treasure?' Believe me we've been spending it.

Your argument is very representative of the problem I'm having. Being talked down to by people who spew out foundationless, factless platitudes about how f*cking great everything is going to be, with no actual bearing on reality. Not only is it patronising, but it's just plain incorrect.

Seriously I'm trying to point you in the direction of something positive. If you want to wallow in despair by all means crack on.



Probably not, to be fair, but it's the extraneous effects of leaving that might factor. Who the f*ck knows, right? Not Farage. Not Boris. Not Cameron. No-one knows, we're on a f*cking rollercoaster where we can't see the rails, and f*ck knows if anyone even finished building it before we strapped in and set off.

On the plus side though at least it is pointing away from France, finished or not.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I was going to reply Denzark, but I'll just leave my friend here. He's your kind of guy:

[Denzark]

Ooh Straw man ad hominem irrelevant and and and*



*translation: incapable of debate.

[Haighus]

Please don't use the Iraq war as a good example of British foreign policy. Afghanistan war is more debatable (I personally think we went in either too late, or shouldn't have gone at all), but the Iraq war as a whole has been a complete failure (aside from the actual military invasion which successfully kicked it off) and the Chilcot report is exposing the massive lack of planning which lead to that. Not to mention we should never have invaded in the first place.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Ooh Straw man ad hominem irrelevant and and and*

*translation: incapable of debate.

You're a self-fulfilling prophecy, really.

I could debate every point you made, Denzark, but I suspect you get a lot more free time in your day than I do. What do you actually do with your day? What is your job?

[Denzark]

Please don't use the Iraq war as a good example of British foreign policy.

I don't think I want to do that and couldn't even start to attempt to do so without going massively OT - I just highlight that there are positives at the personal level for Iraqi people. The overall sum of British legacy across the world for the last 20 years is positive.

[Mr Mystery]

An entirely destabilised country in what looks like more or less perpetual civil war is a good thing?

[Haighus]

An entirely destabilised country in what looks like more or less perpetual civil war is a good thing?

Destabilised region frankly, although the Iraq war is less the cause of that, and more of one of a series of symptoms due to Western corporate greed to be honest. I say the war was a symptom, but it was far from inevitable and entirely avoidable.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah, I'm sure the Iraqi people would shake my hand if I went there. "Thanks for being the ones who killed the tyrant but then left the system open for one of the most corrupt governments in the world contested by a new breed of extremist nutjob."

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on our views of the outcome of the Iraq campaign.